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Post by Mr Gorsky on Nov 29, 2006 11:31:25 GMT -4
... eben with 1/6 G there is some atmosphere Wrong ... no atmosphere on moon. Completely irrelevant analogy, as the engine would not blast directly at the decal as it would when blowing your vacuum cleaner at the wall poster. If you attached the decal to the side of the hose (with sellotape) and then blew the cleaner directly at the floor, you have a better comparison. And I venture to suggest that the decal would stay attached to the hose quite happily. Remote control is irrelevant. NASA had already landed unmanned vehicles on the moon (Surveyor), and the whole point of Apollo was to land a manned vehicle. That means that you have to design, build and test a vehicle designed to travel to the moon carrying (and being piloted by) a human crew. Which is what they did.
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Post by 20469 on Nov 29, 2006 11:40:35 GMT -4
If you look again at the photo AS17-134-20469
you will clearly see there is a gold myler area at the top and at the bottom. The black area in the middle is one of the flat black boards used at the bottom of the lander this can clearly be seen by looking at other photos where the attatchment points are.
As the board is flat unless it buckled the decal is bent and coming off. other photo's on other apollo missions show the same effect but with the bendind at differnt position.
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 29, 2006 11:48:43 GMT -4
Why is this important?
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 29, 2006 11:53:06 GMT -4
How do you know the black area is a flat board? There are other surfaces on the LM that are matt black and still just as crinkled as the mylar (in fact, one of your earlier linked images shows this quite well). Just what flat boards were used in the construction?
In a couple of other pictures you can see this from an angle. The whole surface looks pretty uneven to me.
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Post by 20469 on Nov 29, 2006 11:55:34 GMT -4
To venus why is this important.
On apollo 11 and earlier they may have got it wrong with the decal bending and the chance of it falling off but then they would have to have got it wrong again on apollo 12 , 13 , 14 ,15 ,16 an 17
Are we belive they would have trusted the symbol of America the stars and stripes and UNITED STATES to some flims bits of sticking tape. Image the photos if it had.
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 29, 2006 12:02:42 GMT -4
"Oh my god, the flag decal came off of the Lunar Module! This outrage will not go unpunished! Heads will roll!"
Meh.
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Post by 20469 on Nov 29, 2006 12:16:22 GMT -4
Take a close look at AS-11-40-5893
top middle where the 2 pipes enter the ascent area blow it up have a good look. You may need to lighten it look at the weld , look at the poor job of the seem of the two metal panels are joined. look at ther rough irregular edge around the right metal panel and black panel where the conection has failed
This is very bad build quality? The more you look the biger a pile of junk it looks
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Post by gwiz on Nov 29, 2006 12:23:13 GMT -4
Once again, these panels are thermal covering, not structure.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 29, 2006 12:23:59 GMT -4
Are we belive they would have trusted the symbol of America the stars and stripes and UNITED STATES to some flims bits of sticking tape. Kapton tape is not flimsy. Your characterization of the tape properties is invalid, thus your argument fails.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 29, 2006 12:24:20 GMT -4
On apollo 11 and earlier they may have got it wrong with the decal bending and the chance of it falling off but then they would have to have got it wrong again on apollo 12 , 13 , 14 ,15 ,16 an 17
All of which rather suggests they got it right, doesn't it?
Are we belive they would have trusted the symbol of America the stars and stripes and UNITED STATES to some flims bits of sticking tape.
Oh how many more BLOODY times must we say this? There are some very very good adhesive tapes, such as Kapton, that have engineering applications because they are lightweight, flexible and VERY VERY STRONG. Yet you still insist on using this 'flimsy sticky tape' argument.
FYI, I use a sticky tape which is actually very like Kapton at work every single day. I stuck it on some foil by accident the other day, and it would not come off without ripping the foil and ruining my whole experiment setup. If that decal was fixed to a mylar foil (gold or blackened) with kapton it ain't coming off unless the foil tears.
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Post by sts60 on Nov 29, 2006 13:20:23 GMT -4
Staelites use foil and tape. When they take off they are protected by nose cone's and they never have to land. They just burn up when they drop out of orbit.
The LM was protected by the fairing until it was in a vacuum. It remained in a vacuum for the rest of its mission.
It is interesting that having first sent a orbit mission around the moon they did not do a dummy run of landing and having take off an umaned module under remote control to se if it would work.
A remote-control landing was considered and rejected. It would have required extensive modifications to the LM, and would have been just as much a test of the remote-control system as it would have been of the LM. This is important in real aerospace engineering; a test of a modified system may or be not worth while. In this case, engineers and managers decided, rightly, that it wasn't.
Besides, an LM descent and ascent (without touching down) was flown prior to the first landing. The first touchdown was the final test. That was in addition to extensive subsystem and thermal-vacuum testing of the vehicle.
they had not tried using this design to land and take off form the moon. Remote control would be possible and wise
Not given the constraints of the system. Not in the judgment of those who were developing and flying the vehicle (and I've had the opportunity of working with some of those people and assessing said judgment). I concur in retrospect with their decision, and unlike you, I work in this field. Your opinion is duly noted, but cannot fairly be said to be very convincing.
Are we belive they would have trusted the symbol of America the stars and stripes and UNITED STATES to some flims bits of sticking tape.
Faulty premise. Kapton tape is used routinely on exterior surfaces of spacecraft; I've used it myself. In any case, your argument is of the "If I ran the zoo..." variety and carries no weight unless you can demonstrate understanding of the subject or relevant expertise. But neither condition is satisfied.
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 29, 2006 13:44:17 GMT -4
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MarkS
Earth
Why is it so?
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Post by MarkS on Nov 29, 2006 14:10:02 GMT -4
Just so that I'm understanding correctly, lunatic = KJ = billy = 20469?
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Post by gillianren on Nov 29, 2006 17:35:02 GMT -4
Okay, first off, turning my taps onto full doesn't make it splash all over my clothes. One imagines it must depend on sink pressure and shape.
Second, I'm unsure as to how a possibly-faulty sticker would undermine the whole mission. It isn't as though the American flag isn't splashed all over everything else.
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Post by nomuse on Nov 29, 2006 17:36:08 GMT -4
I'm glad I guessed right about the re-adhering problem. I was sure that the Kapton tape fell into that class of adhesives where you get one try and one try only -- instant tack, no adjustment. That alone would cause the tape job to look as it does. But add to that you are taping on to a flexible surface of crinkled mylar over a sandwich of other materials....this is a very _clean_ job by people who work with that tape all the time!
Regardless, none of this will mean anything to 20469 as he is too stubborn and lazy to go look at the posted properties of Kapton Tape (I just did, over at duPont's site, but then...) And his phantom degree will somehow not give him the skills to break a problem into calculate-able elements.
And so he'll continue to run down Bart Sibrel's list like clockwork, nary a moment of original thought, nary a shred of doubt or investigation over what he is reading at his favorite hoax site. Anyone who claims to have an engineering degree, even a mechanic's, should be ashamed to be so credulous.
Unless, of course, he is just a bored troll.
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