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Post by 20469 on Nov 28, 2006 12:42:10 GMT -4
have you checked out apollo 17 image as17-134-20469 if not google apollo+17+image+library
The decal of the american flag + united states is held on to the base of the moon lander with sticky tape. if I had gone this bad a job of wrapping a xmas present I would have had another go at it. This is just feet from the descent engine so any reflected blast from the moon surface would have blown it away
THis can also be seen but not as clear on apollo 11 image as11-40-5864hr aslo in this image the descent engine look s unfired dous that look like a glove under the engine? meybe not
Anyway I do not think the sticky tape Apollo was worth 30 billion dollers.
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 28, 2006 12:53:30 GMT -4
You don't know anything about how spacecraft are built, do you?
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Post by scooter on Nov 28, 2006 13:09:04 GMT -4
Can you explain why the "sticky tape" would not work? The tape (Kapton tape, actually) is just there to hold the emblems in place, nothing more. The "reflected" exhaust didn't get there...no atmosphere or turbulence, remember? Would you rather they'd used some 21k gold or platinum?
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Post by gwiz on Nov 28, 2006 14:00:55 GMT -4
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 28, 2006 14:58:46 GMT -4
The decal of the american flag + united states is held on to the base of the moon lander with sticky tape. So, is there something wrong with using tape? if I had gone this bad a job of wrapping a xmas present I would have had another go at it. Does the neatness with which a decal is attached somehow affect the LM’s ability to function? If not, then who cares? This is just feet from the descent engine so any reflected blast from the moon surface would have blown it away Exhaust from the engine reflects radially outward low to the ground. The decal is safely out of the way of the exhaust stream. THis can also be seen but not as clear on apollo 11 image as11-40-5864hr aslo in this image the descent engine look s unfired And just how does an unfired engine look different from one that has been fired? dous that look like a glove under the engine? meybe not. Not
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Nov 28, 2006 18:42:12 GMT -4
have you checked out apollo 17 image as17-134-20469 if not google apollo+17+image+library The decal of the american flag + united states is held on to the base of the moon lander with sticky tape. if I had gone this bad a job of wrapping a xmas present I would have had another go at it. This is just feet from the descent engine so any reflected blast from the moon surface would have blown it away In addition to what everyone else has posted, this decal is behind one of the experiment pallets that has been unloaded. So it could never have been blown by any reflected blast anyway, safely tucked underneath the package on that particular quad.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 28, 2006 19:10:17 GMT -4
Flawed assumption 1: Sticky tape is sticky tape is sticky tape. What you see in that picture is the same stuff you buy for your giftwrapping.
Question 1: Since you can buy Scotch tape, masking tape, gaffer tape, Duck tape, double sided tape and all sorts just from your local stationer, is it not possible there just might be some types of adhesive tapes with engineering applications?
Flawed assumption 2: The way the decal is attached is a direct representation of how the rest of the spacecraft was built.
Question 2: Do you assume that because a car has a sticker on the back the whole thing is held together by glue and hope?
Flawed assumption 3: a) exhaust from a rocket engine located below and behind the side of the descent stage will somehow reflect and impinge on it sufficiently to blow the decal off, and b) that this actually matters.
Question 3: How does the exhaust from a rocket behave in a vacuum?
Flawed assumption 4: There is an obvious visual difference between a fired and unfired rocket engine using hypergolic fuels in space.
Question 3: Exactly what would you expect to see on an unfired engine using a fuel that did not produce sooty particles?
Flawed assumption 5: The fact that there appears to be something under the descent stage is actually relevant in any way.
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Post by hplasm on Nov 28, 2006 19:22:45 GMT -4
Question 4: Will Mercury- sorry- mercury return after reading more Margamatix posts, or is he a Seagull posting from a long period comet?
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Post by 20469 on Nov 29, 2006 4:48:51 GMT -4
Any one heard of glue? A beter job of sticking this on could have been done this is amature to the extreame?
This decal id behind a palette. But the one on apollo 11 is not. this is also held on with stiky tape. look at the antenna pins label. looks ready to fall off. would have looked good if the american flag and united states had fallen off into the moon dust. would have messed up there photo's
yes there is industrial sticky tape. but it aint magic
I do think that a fired engine would look different to an unfired engine. No sign of the thin gold covering the legs , feet or bottom of lander , being disturbed by blast, or being covered in gunk blasted of the moon?
Get real! someone would have had to have a very bad day at work. to do sucj a bad job, we could argue baout illumiation for ever. Did they have a flash does it look like a flash was used. was there enough reflected light from the surface or the space suite? to produce these highlights maybe but I doupt it.
It matters cause it dont look right? something smells fishy get it.
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Post by Mr Gorsky on Nov 29, 2006 5:00:21 GMT -4
Tell you what, 20469 ... why not go and read up about Kapton tape (the type of tape used) before making an issue of it. You never know, you might actually learn something. Here's the linkAnd the fact that it "doesn't look right" to someone who clearly doesn't know very much about these things is irrelevant unless they have some actual evidence that there is something that should "smell fishy".
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 29, 2006 5:10:28 GMT -4
Any one heard of glue?
Yes, it's what they use on the back of, wait for it, sticky tape!
A beter job of sticking this on could have been done
Could it? According to what criteria?
yes there is industrial sticky tape. but it aint magic
No, but it is very strong stuff. I use a particular type of sticky tape in my day to day work, and believe me that stuff ain't coming off anything once its on without some serious effort or chemical dissolution.
I do think that a fired engine would look different to an unfired engine.
Insufficient. Desribe exactly how it would look different and why.
No sign of the thin gold covering the legs , feet or bottom of lander , being disturbed by blast, or being covered in gunk blasted of the moon?
Why do you expect it to be? Why should dry dust travelling at considerable speed get stuck to smooth mylar foil rather than just bouncing or being blown off?
we could argue baout illumiation for ever.
Only if you are stubborn enough not to accept reality.
Did they have a flash
No. If you can't even do enough research to find that out for yourself why should we be interested in your views on the Apollo record?
was there enough reflected light from the surface or the space suite? to produce these highlights maybe but I doupt it.
You can doubt all you like, it won't change how light behaves.
It matters cause it dont look right? something smells fishy get it.
Yes. Someone with next to no expertise on any relevant subject thinks the record is fishy because it doesn't look right to his untrained eye.
Well, there is nothing that doesn't look right to those of us who have spent years studying the relevant subjects and looking at the record in detail. Get it?
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Post by 20469 on Nov 29, 2006 5:29:22 GMT -4
You should download the hires version of those pictures if AS17-134-20469 with the sticky tape curled up and all over the place does not look very sloppy then dont get a job macking parcels.
glue could have been used over the whole underenath of these decals and there would have been no need for sucj a bad tape job. why does this matter. Such a bad build looks wrong other areas also look wrong. The bowed outer panelling on AS-11-40-5922 The metal work and panelling on AS11-405893 where the landing strut meets the cowling. Even allowing for damage from landing. THis looks like a bad weld and a very rough edge. The fatners have failed on what looks like hardboard covering. Ok if this wa a caravan but not good enough build quality for a monn lander.
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Post by Jason Thompson on Nov 29, 2006 5:48:59 GMT -4
Ah, so you know how good a spacecraft is by what it looks like. Well that clears that up. Jeez.
I'm willing to bet you have no idea that the outer skin of the LM was purely for the purpose of heat rejection. It is not pressurised. It is just a thin coating stuck on the outside to reflect the incident solar radiation. underneath are several layers of mylar for the same purpose, and the multiple layers provide protection against micrometeoroids. The rigid pressure skin and all the structural construction is underneath all that. The whole of that outer skin could be ripped off and the LM would still function as a spacecraft but with thermal regulation difficulties and less protection from meteoroids.
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Post by dwight on Nov 29, 2006 5:53:52 GMT -4
Tell you what 20469, I made a post a while back suggesting that folk who really have expertise in space travel go to NASA and apply their knowledge to the new lunar missions. I mean, just think of the contributions to science and human exploration.
I'd recommend going for the lunar lander aesthetics department, so you could position that decal with the most appropriate adhesive. And also, the more important part of the whole thing, you could expose any hoaxery immediately. Coming from inside NASA that would be fairly damning evidence.
You may get to topple an administration, because as we all know :
1. You can't get through the Van Allen Radiation Belts 2. Once a liar always a liar.
Of course sitting comfortably in front of a PC typing away at the sacrelidge of a misaligned stitch in the spacesuit may be more your area of expertise, I dont know. But it is worth giving it a go at NASA; DONT YOU THINK!!!
ps I believe this topic was discussed at extreme length on this very board. I was unable to find it though.
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Post by nomuse on Nov 29, 2006 6:00:38 GMT -4
I'd love to see the spacecraft he'd assemble. Slap some Elmer's white glue under the decal, sure, that'd hold.
20469, sometimes helps to take a leaf from Mark Twain. Reality is allowed to look strange; it is fiction that is constrained to the expected and the normal-appearing. If the LM had been the product of a hoax, why would it have a funny-looking tape job, rough edges, and so forth? If the LM were the product of a hoax, would it not be within reason for it to look at least as good as any other high-budget SF film of the time? Did you see packing tape and cardboard anywhere in 2001, for instance?
Nay, the fact that the LM looks strange is pretty good indication that it comes out of reality; reality that does not have to answer our intuitions and preconceptions. Reality has rough edges.
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