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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 13:42:07 GMT -4
OK Capricorn, let me really spell it out.
Why does it equal FAKE? Beacuse NASA provides the coordinates to LICK Observatory BEFORE!!!!!! the observatory verifies them as the exact coordinates.
NASA has inside information as to where the LRRR is. It is inside information because we see the LM equipment cannot provide the requisite accuracy to deliver to Lick Observatory the numbers N 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00 where even the seconds of arc there are meaningful. This measurement was not made by the Eagle. Clear and not a fact in dispute.
The LRRR's position was not determined by the tracking system that followed the alleged ships. Fact not in dispute.
NASA determined the LRRR position outside of the context of the Apollo mission and provided precise details as regards that position to an incredible level of accuracy to the staff at Lick on the evening of 07/20/1969. A fact now not in dispute.
The astronauts did not place the LRRR. Its position was not determined by the LM. Facts not in dispute.
THIS EQUALS (IN YOUR PARLANCE) CAPRICORN FAKE FAKE FAKE!!
Sorry to bust up your party , but the scheme has run out of wiggle room.
Pleasure to meet you by the way.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 13:29:37 GMT -4
One last try Capricorn. From the above we see that NASA is not able to determine the Eagle's east west position to within better that .75 miles. Fact per the Apollo transcript not in dispute.
NASA provides the Lick Observatory with the LRRR's location on 07/20/1969. This includes an east coordinate of 23 26 00 where the last two digits , the seconds of arc are meaningful. This is not in dispute.
NASA knows the LRRR's location to within rough 27 feet on the night of the landing. Not in dispute. With the equipment on board the LM, we see they cannopt make such a determination. Not in dispute.
The LRRR's position was determined by a means other than that available to the LM. Not in dispute.
Men aboard a LM alleged to have landed on the moon 07/20/1969 did not place the LRRR as they could not have determined its position with the requisite east west accuracy.
Blackstar, present your evidence for sock please. thank you.
Jay, I do not claim to be able to navigate a spaceship. I only claim to be able to point out to any reader what the Eagle's lunar coordinates were purported by NASA to be.
One may do whatever they wish with the coordinates. As is now in evidence, they were not employed in the piloting of a spaceship regardless.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:53:25 GMT -4
For Bob
The LM landing coordinates are first determined by running the P68 program via the navigational system's equipment. See the MIT manual for a few more details. That information as well as information provided by the LM's tracking data(from earth) would provide Houston with the LM's lunar coordinates. Before take off, Houston would use this and the data acquired by way of Aldrin's final star sightings, the post EVA sightings, to determine a final position as a component of the the LM state vector. The P68 was run just after landing and prior to the EVA.
In this way, the LM's state vector was determined. That state vector featured the position N 00 43 24 and E 23 26 24. This was Houston's determination of the Eagle's position as loaded into the guidance system's computer prior to take off. It is .67 miles north of the LRRR. The LRRR's precise location was provided to the Lick Observatory people prior to the determination of the Eagle's state vector at the time of departure. We conclude, Houston knew the Eagle to be .67 miles from the LRRR. This is a fact not in dispute.
Note, as the transcript gives the Eagle's east coordinate as 23.44, its position cannot really be inputted to a greater accuracy than that of the last digit there .04 degrees or 2.4 minutes of arc. From that we conclude that the Eagle's east west position had an uncertainty of .75 miles give or take and the exact state vector as uploaded from earth would not have been for the east coordinate E 00 23 26 24 as the seconds of arc here (24) are outside of the system's reach as concerns accuracy as is the 26 minute figure in this coordinate. I simply carried out the conversion from 23.44 as far as I could for the sake of demonstrating the coordinate's form in this alternative representation. This of course does not change the substance of my argument at all as the latitude for the state vector is given as .72349 degrees. So the north south accuracy is within roughly 9 feet give or take. Neil Armstrong would still need to walk .67 miles south to reach the LRRR.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:42:29 GMT -4
Capricorn, let me make this simple for you. I am not saying anything. I am reporting the following. NASA knew where the LRRR was precisely on the evening of 07/20/1969. At the time of Eagle's alleged departure it was according to NASA's own records, .67 miles away from where they knew with absolute certainty the LRRR to be.
You may interpret these facts not in dispute any way you care to . I have provided one suggested interpretation.
What is not in dispuute is that these facts prove the official story to be untrue. Sorry. Make up your own unofficial story. Suits me fine. You may write to NASA and the Lick Observatory as well Capricorn along with Luke and Jay. Write a joint letter. Tell them you don't like their own FACTS.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:26:53 GMT -4
For Jason,
As previous, my life away from this forum is just that. If there is a rule here about an obligation to discuss my activities outside the context of this forum, please present it. Otherwise, let's move on with the debate. I understand the anxiety you are all experiencing. Pretty cool what I figured out isn't it? I have lots more. Whether I share it here or not is in some sense irrelevant as my friends and I are all spreading the word. If you fear me now in debate, it is understandable. If you wish to ban me for some nonsensical reason, fine. It does not change the facts as we all now will come to know them. May as well debate me a little here, as difficult as it is for you all now. Sorry, but Clavius is busted.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:18:06 GMT -4
Also Jay, no claims have been made without appropriate referencing. The most recent topic of debate, the Eagle's lunar coordinates, they are provided by the Apollo 11 transcript itself. Niot a point in dispute, not a baseless claim. It is a statement of fact as provided in NASA's very own voice transcript. This is true also of the FACT of the LRRR's location at N 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00. This point, this fact is not in dispute. Nothing less than the man who targeted the laser on the evening of 07/20/1969 wrote a first hand account of his experience that interesting evening confiming these as the coordinates given to the Lick staff by NASA that evening.
As I just mentioned to Luke Jay, if you are so unhappy with NASA's own Apollo 11 transcript showing the Eagle's location at N 00 43 24 and E 23 26 24 and their well documented knowledge of the LRRR's location on the evening of 07/20/1969 at N 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00, then I suggest you write to NASA and ask them if they might be so kind as to reconcile their own Apollo 11 transcript record, change the Eagle's location for your benefit so that Neil Armstrong would not have to walk the requesite .67 miles in the context of the facts as currently presented and very much not in dispute. Not in dispute by NASA. Not in dispute by the Lick Observatory people. I am simply presenting the facts Jay. I am not making anything up here. If you are unhappy with this, write to NASA, write to Lick. See if they will doctor their records for your benefit.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:04:55 GMT -4
Fine Jay, whatever. As before, if there is evidence for my posting here under another name, please present it. I thought we had settled this point by now.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 12:01:24 GMT -4
Why are you arguing this point with me Luke? If you do not like the facts as stated in the articles written by the principal investigators of the LRRR experiment, landmark articles appearing in Science Magazine, I suggest you write your own articles pointing our how and why these people were/are wrong and submit them for publication. I am sure the editors at Science will carefully consider the merit in your attempt at rewriting LRRR history.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 11:57:54 GMT -4
Can't say I have navigated a one Jay, and apparently, as regards navigating one across cislunar space and back, by the looks of things now, neither has NASA!
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 11:31:13 GMT -4
For Bob.
As you well know the state vector was said to have been determined by 2 methods and these cross referenced to reassure all for accuracy's sake. Sightings were done by the astronauts. Also, tracking was employed in the determination of the ship's state vectors. The latter was used primarily with sightings to confirm its accuracy. The state vector data was uploaded from earth. There was no room for human error as regards this. Or so the script says. See the book, "The Apollo guidance Computer" by Frank O'brien. Also I found helpful, "How Apollo Flew to the Moon" by W. David Woods. The MIT Apollo Guidance Manual also provides useful details.
Navigating a spaceship via tracking and the subsequent uploading of very specific piloting data/instructions is not dead reckoning Bob. Sorry but it just ain't so.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 11:12:25 GMT -4
If I used the term with reference to the LRRR, I should not have Luke. There was no frantic looking about. The LRRR's position was known with precision on the evening of the landing. If anywhere I made reference previously to that not being the case, I was wrong.
I would suggest it may have been in the context of looking for the astronauts. I may have used the term frantic in that context as regards US Geological Survey people hunting for the astronauts.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 11:07:21 GMT -4
For Luke
I do not contend anything. They did not frantically look. Read the articles referrenced. They know exactly where the LRRR is. There is no frantic looking about. Please see the references. These are points not in dispute.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 11:05:57 GMT -4
For Luke above.
You are incorrect Luke. I have already referred you to the original articles by the principal investigators of the LRRR experiment in Science magazine. The problem with getting a return had nothing to do with lack of knowledge as regards the LRRR's location. It had to do with a programming problem. This was covered in previous posts. It is not a point in dispute. It is a point confirmed in the articles written by the principal investigators of the LRRR experiment. those articles appear in Science magazine and have already been referrenced. We may conclude, as flight data and photo analysis were not needed to help in locating the LRRR and as this is a point not in dispute per the principal investigators of the LRRR experiment, NASA must be lying about the photo/flight data analysis need as NASA itself provided Lick Observatory with the LRRR's coordinates on the evening of the landing.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 10:56:47 GMT -4
For Lunar Orbit at #445 above.
The guidance platform's data is loaded via telemetry. the astronauts do not load the data.
You may use whatever terms you please. The estimate of the Eagle's location was as above and it was .75 miles distant from the LRRR as that LRRR location was precisely known on the evening of 07/20/1969. Not in dispute.
NASA knew the LRRR's location with great precision as confirmed subsequently by the group at Lick Observatory. Not in dispute.
NASA knew that their precise location of the LRRR was .75 miles distant from their best guess as to where Neil Armstrong was. Not in dispute.
On the night of 07/20/1969, NASA knew where the LRRR was with precision and it was .75 miles distant from their best guess as to where Neil Armstrong was. Therefore, NASA knew Neil Armstrong could not have placed the LRRR down at that precise location, known to NASA on 07/20/1969.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 17, 2011 10:47:36 GMT -4
For Lunar Orbit at #445 above.
NASA provide the Lick Observatory with coordinates N 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00 on the evening of 07/20/1969. Not in dispute.
Lick Observatory first successfully captured returning photons on 08/01/1969 and only subsequently confirmed 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00 as the exact location of the LRRR. Not in dispute.
NASA knew the precise location of the LRRR before the staff at Lick Observatory and well before the LRRR was successfully confirmed to be at N 00 41 15 and E 23 26 00 by the principal investigators of the LRRR experiment. Not in dispute.
The Eagle's guidance platform was said to be at N 43 24 and E 23 26 24 at the time of its take off from the moon. Not in dispute.
NASA knew on the night of the landing that the LRRR and the guidance platform's location were .75 apart. Not in dispute.
NASA knew on the night of the lunar landing that Neil Armstrong could not have left the LRRR on the moon as it was .75 miles distant from him. Not in dispute.
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