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Post by PhantomWolf on May 4, 2007 23:08:37 GMT -4
The Matrix where we are duped into thinking that the sun is in the middle of the solar system.The sun's not the middle of the solar system though, that's the problem. 
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on May 5, 2007 14:44:06 GMT -4
I agree. In my opinion worship is a fundamentally self-serving process. Not to disrespect the practice in any way.
Well, that's assuming God is in any way knowable. I agree that disagreements don't automatically mean everybody's wrong, but I don't feel God is knowable in any fashion. So when people argue about God's will, I find it a moot point to debate.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 5, 2007 19:38:23 GMT -4
Well, that's assuming God is in any way knowable. I agree that disagreements don't automatically mean everybody's wrong, but I don't feel God is knowable in any fashion. So when people argue about God's will, I find it a moot point to debate. Why do you believe God is not knowable? |
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on May 7, 2007 18:14:12 GMT -4
Partly because I view God in kind of an abstract notion merely as the creator of the universe. If God was in any way knowable then we could in theory study Him. I find the notion of a caring omnipotent being that is completely seperate from our perception yet always communicating with us indirectly kind of ridiculous.
I think the question is, how can we know anything about God? What are the ways in which we know about God? What methods do we have to learn anything about Him? I don't accept the bible as the word of God because it is so clearly the word of man. I don't accept the words of so-called prophets because their will is always masking what they claim to be God's will. The question is not why do I believe god is not knowable, the question really is why do you think god is knowable?
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Post by Bill Thompson on May 7, 2007 18:38:12 GMT -4
Yes, I think if SpiderMan derailed that train in the second movie it would be worse than if he had tried to stop it.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 8, 2007 11:22:03 GMT -4
Partly because I view God in kind of an abstract notion merely as the creator of the universe. If God was in any way knowable then we could in theory study Him. I find the notion of a caring omnipotent being that is completely seperate from our perception yet always communicating with us indirectly kind of ridiculous. I don't believe in a carrying omnipotent being that never communicates directly with us either. I am interested in why you would beleive in a distant creator but not a present being. Our knowledge of God derives ultimately from what He choses to reveal about Himself. God is not interested in compelling us to do what is right (he wishes us to choose for ourselves), therefore there will always be room for uncertainty as to his existence. The simplest method for learning about God is to put into practice what are said to be His commandments. If you follow them and find that they are good advice and of benefit to you then you know that their source must be good. Praying is another excellent method in learning about God. Pray what you feel. Tell him what your problems are and what help you could use. Tell him what you are grateful for, and maybe even ask Him if he is there and cares about you. After you are done, wait and listen for a bit. You may not hear a voice or see angels descending to help you but you may very well receive an answer. Is there anything that you find particularly telling in that regard? I would say that the Bible clearly came through imperfect men, but that there is also a great deal of truth in what it says about God and what is right. You mean that these "prophets" are clearly acting in their own interests? That would be because I have practiced what I've been preaching here. I have recieved guidance from God on many occasions. Not a voice or an angel, but clear knowledge about important things, like whether my faith is correct and how best to help people in need. |
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on May 8, 2007 11:55:51 GMT -4
I find that following a set of morals like the ten commandments leads to a better life, call it enlightenment or authentic living or whatever you want. That is what I most respect about religious practice. Prayer takes a strong faith in God as a listener and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. Some people really need faith to stay strong, but I prefer to solve my own problems. What you feel about God being knowable is really your interpretation. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in that regard. But, in thinking about what you said, this surprisingly poignant quote from Futurama came to mind: "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." That to me is the most compelling argument for a meddling God, though it still doesn't convince me.
The bible has been translated and interpreted enough that if it originally was the word of God, it isn't anymore. But the bible has always been the word of man. Some of the mythologies are lifted from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The morals and lessons generated by the bible are the most important aspect of it but that doesn't mean it is the direct word of God.
Sure. Their interests may simply be to spread the word of God but it is still in their own interest.
I'm glad you have strong faith. Faith is absolutely the most important aspect of religion. Many people need it, I do not. I'm happy knowing that I am living a good authentic life and have little regrets. I am following my dreams and I have love and respect for my fellow man. I'm sure you can boast similar accomplishments.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 8, 2007 12:44:16 GMT -4
Prayer takes a strong faith in God as a listener and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. Understandable. My advice would be to keep it in mind in case you eventually change your mind. It has been a great help to me. Well, often what I seek from God is confirmation that what I think is a good solution really is. If I don't get that confirmation then I look at the problem again and sometimes come up with a better solution. So you could say that I am still solving my own problems, just with a little inside knowledge. This is of course only on really important things. Asking God whether I should order a Big Mac or the Quarter Pounder is not likely to get me much of a response. That's another chicken and egg argument. At this distance in time it's not really possible to tell who is borrowing from whom with any certainty. My argument there would then be that yes you may be able to get by without faith but you are also denying yourself the blessings that you would have with it. If you're happy where you are then more power to you, but what if you could be more happy then you are? |
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on May 12, 2007 16:21:43 GMT -4
The banner ad right now is pretty interesting considering the debate. Anyways, faith is not a thing I can just "try out" to see if I would be happier. I would need to really believe in faith for it to do anything for me, and I can't just make myself believe in it. The very definition of faith kind of excludes me from being able to give it a trial run.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on May 12, 2007 16:42:27 GMT -4
From the Book of Mormon;
Alma 32:26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Nov 13, 2007 0:41:09 GMT -4
I just thought of something new.
Galileo showed that the planet Venus goes through phases just like the moon goes through phases. This can clearly show where the Planet Venus is in relationship to the Earth and the sun. By showing the phases of planets you can see that the planet is either behind the sun or in-front of the sun between the Earth and the sun.
So the telescope shows that the sun is at the center of the solar system by how the phases of planets are just like the phases of the moon.
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Post by Data Cable on Nov 14, 2007 13:57:15 GMT -4
Sure, Venus orbits the sun... but the sun still orbits the earth.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Nov 14, 2007 14:41:06 GMT -4
I am sick of this place. You are all idiots, and lunar orbit is the biggest idiot of all. Does it make you feel importent to be an admin? This is bullsh*t, anyone can do it. When you try to pick up girls in bars and tell them you are the administrator, are they impressed? Or do they call you a pathetic looser? You are a joke. It is not posible to have intelligent discussion in your playgroup, people are too illogicial and beleive in ridiculous supersticions. I will not waist anymore time here, it is hopeless, you people do not want to think, there are things in the world and the universe that make you uncomfortable, so you make up nice stories to make yourselves feel better. You are pathetic.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Nov 14, 2007 21:40:29 GMT -4
Eeeh, not quite. He was told that he had to give equal precidence to both theories, though he then went on to write a book in which he basically ridiculed the geocentric theory and made the believers in it look bumbling and inept. The Pope took exception to that.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Nov 14, 2007 21:41:48 GMT -4
And the way Mars has different phases of the sun showed that we had to be between Mars and Venus.
As far as I know, Mars doesn't have any phases when viewed from Earth.
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