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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 10:48:01 GMT -4
That is in no way how science works. Scientists and the engineers I work with do not throw around words like "possible" and "impossible" since truly anything is possible.
I think by your own admission you are holding on to hope that although something is implausable it is obviously possible. And noone can argue. Why is that?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 10:58:36 GMT -4
If a civilization did exist on a planet in orbit around a nearby star, and if that civilization did not use radio, how would we detect them? There MIGHT be this and there MIGHT be that. Are you familiar with the commedian Mike Myers and his character "Wayne" and his comment on the word "might"?
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Post by wdmundt on Sept 18, 2007 11:00:13 GMT -4
I'm asking how we would know, not whether there might be a civilization there.
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Jason
Pluto
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 11:06:13 GMT -4
I'm asking how we would know, not whether there might be a civilization there. That was my point about bringing up the possible bronze-age culture on a planet around Alpha Centauri, but Bill completely missed the point and leaped off to a wild presumption about humans living there in a bronze age for a billion years or some such nonsense. And Bill, I insist that you cease disparaging my religion on threads where religion hasn't entered the discussion. My arguments on this thread have been strictly secular.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 11:19:24 GMT -4
"Real language"? As opposed to what? A fake language? As opposed to communication that can only communicate simple concepts - fear, anger, help, encouragement, etc. which is what all animals on this planet are limited to. Well, that one's largely common sense and everything I've read or heard about bees. Language in this context I would define as the ability to communicate abstract concepts. "2+2=4", for instance, or "no taxation without representation". No animal on this planet has the ability to do this sort of thing, so they don't have a true language. Even the few primates who have been taught human designed sign-language can't use it for these purposes. Intelligence in this context goes hand-in-hand with this language abiltiy. The ability to discuss abstract concepts is a mark of the type of intelligence I'm talking about. Uh, not that I recall. I have said several times that animals like dogs or honeybees aren't intelligent in the same way humans are. You mean you haven't entered this argument with the conviction that there is no other intelligent life in the universe and then tried to mold and shape reality to that idea? Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line one. This (and the personal attacks that followed it) is the sort of religious bigotry that Lunar Orbit has warned you about several times Bill. Better lay off.
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Post by wdmundt on Sept 18, 2007 11:27:56 GMT -4
I have to chime in here, too , Bill. There's no place for that crap at all and there's certainly no place for it on this thread. The topic at hand is Fermi's Paradox.
There is a thread about Mormonism, if you must -- but even there you should confine your discussion to relevant ideas, theories and facts. Personal attacks are counterproductive and drive people on all sides directly away from you, Bill.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 11:46:09 GMT -4
There is a thread about Mormonism, if you must -- but even there you should confine your discussion to relevant ideas, theories and facts. Personal attacks are counterproductive and drive people on all sides directly away from you, Bill. Actually I asked LO to lock the original "Mormonism" thread after it degenerated to the point that I felt that I was the only one still reading it, but we can always start a new thread.
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Post by Data Cable on Sept 18, 2007 13:35:03 GMT -4
Or have they existed in a primitive state for a few hundred million years? What if they appeared long after we did, advanced faster than we did, but still are only in a rough equivalent of the Bronze Age? So sayeth the believer in miracle cancer cures cooked up by magical elves in a hollow tree.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 16:29:50 GMT -4
Or have they existed in a primitive state for a few hundred million years? What if they appeared long after we did, advanced faster than we did, but still are only in a rough equivalent of the Bronze Age? So sayeth the believer in miracle cancer cures cooked up by magical elves in a hollow tree. There might be leprechauns in the forest around our office. It is possible. Maybe I should convince myself and my colleagues to abandon our research and go look for them. It cannot hurt looking. Besides, the leprechauns will provide us cures for cancer, I want to believe. It does not differ from your faith in SETI. SETI has the earmarks of a pseudo religion. Comments like "we cannot rule out the existance of --" and "we want to believe --" are what people of faith say. In a nut shell, the reason why we are driven to religion is our natural fear of death; the reason why we are drawn to SETI is our natural fear of being alone. Religious people even laugh and redicule any notion that your consciousness might not survive our death. They do this because they do not WANT to consider that they are wrong. It is the same sort of thing with SETI but it is our fear of being alone. Our fear of being alone in the galaxy is a powerful emotion. It takes over our capacity to view the subject rationally. It is not what somethig IS. It is what something MEANS that is important to people. If we are alone in the Galaxy, this means some very troubling things. There is a thread about Mormonism, if you must -- but even there you should confine your discussion to relevant ideas, theories and facts. Personal attacks are counterproductive and drive people on all sides directly away from you, Bill. Actually I asked LO to lock the original "Mormonism" thread after it degenerated to the point that I felt that I was the only one still reading it, but we can always start a new thread. Bonus !! nowscape.com/mormon/mormons5.htm
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 16:33:51 GMT -4
What part of "start a new thread if you want to discuss a different topic" did you not understand Bill?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 16:48:35 GMT -4
What part of "start a new thread if you want to discuss a different topic" did you not understand Bill? it is the same topic. It is not not why you believe as you do? nowscape.com/mormon/mormons5.htm
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 16:49:30 GMT -4
Or have they existed in a primitive state for a few hundred million years? What if they appeared long after we did, advanced faster than we did, but still are only in a rough equivalent of the Bronze Age? So sayeth the believer in miracle cancer cures cooked up by magical elves in a hollow tree. Wait a second. Did you think I was serious about the magic elves? I did not think you were serious about ETI providing us a cure for cancer. Were you? How do the two differ?
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Post by Bill Thompson on Sept 18, 2007 16:53:56 GMT -4
What part of "start a new thread if you want to discuss a different topic" did you not understand Bill? No worries. I have started my own blog: ami-gos.com/Xenu J Smith Feel free to comment on what I post there. It will be loads of fun. It will be pretty much a discussion of this: nowscape.com/mormon/mormons5.htmBut isn't this exactly what motivates your belief? And so it is this same topic?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 18, 2007 17:00:00 GMT -4
Tell you what Bill. If one other person on the forum says that they want to hear my side of your anti-mormon stuff I'll open up a new thread, paste all the refrences you've been making on this and other threads in there, and start shooting them down like we were at a trap shoot. If no one else is interested, though, I'm not going to bother responding to any of your future jabs at the LDS church. I'm not going to have another thread where just you and I bicker back and forth, and I'll assume that no one else is reading your attacks anyway.
Of course, all this assumes that Lunar Orbit isn't about to ban you.
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Post by wdmundt on Sept 18, 2007 17:01:02 GMT -4
I’m not afraid of being alone in the galaxy, Bill. I’m not aware of anyone who is afraid of being alone in the galaxy. I don’t know that if there are or if there aren’t any other beings of any kind in this galaxy or beyond it. I do know that many of us are interested to see what lies beneath the ice of Europa. Could there be an environment suitable for life there? The idea that life could arise in an environment so different from the environment on Earth lends credence to the idea that the universe may not be as hostile as some fear it to be.
We don’t know at this point. But many of us would like to find out.
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