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Post by tedward on Sept 13, 2010 3:17:33 GMT -4
Ah, my error. Viking affair reference as in the Normans were descended from them. Can't seem to get around the idea it was the French proper  |
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Post by PeterB on Sept 13, 2010 8:01:18 GMT -4
If you want to talk about changing alliances, consider a couple of the wars of King Frederick the Great of Prussia. From 1740 to 1748, Prussia and France fought a war against Austria, with Britain as Austria's ally, a war known as the War of the Austrian Succession. After the war, Austria managed to convince France to switch allegiances, and the two went to war against Prussia in 1756, only eight years after the last war had finished. Prussia's ally in the war was Britain. This second war was the Seven Years War, which among other things saw Britain bundle France out of North America, with consequences most North Americans know. So while Prussia fought Austria both times, and France fought Britain both times, France and Britain switched allegiances between the two wars.
But an even more remarkable turnaround is that Britain and France became allies in 1815 - the year of the Battle of Waterloo fought between those two countries. However, the alliance was sealed with re-restored King Louis XVIII.
If nothing else, this goes to show that major powers don't have allies as such, they have interests (in Britain's case from ~1700 it's been keeping Europe divided). Their alliances are determined by their interests. Hence, the USSR, the USA and the UK were allies in World War Two, because they had a common interest - defeating Germany. Once Germany was defeated, the former allies' interests diverged, leading to the Cold War.
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Post by captain swoop on Sept 13, 2010 12:28:49 GMT -4
Britain always supported the 'underdog' in a European War to stop any one power getting too much of an upper hand. At sea up until WW1 Britain always had a 'Two Power' policy. That is, the RN should be equal in size to the combined fleets of the two nearest powers it was likely to face.
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Post by gillianren on Sept 13, 2010 14:54:59 GMT -4
Ah, my error. Viking affair reference as in the Normans were descended from them. Can't seem to get around the idea it was the French proper Actually, my understanding is that a lot of the Normans were actually Brittons, or Bretons, or from Brittany. A lot of moving around 1500 years ago. But to get an idea of how "French proper" it was, look at some of the conflicts of the next few hundred years! |
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 13, 2010 20:14:12 GMT -4
Ah, my error. Viking affair reference as in the Normans were descended from them. Can't seem to get around the idea it was the French proper Actually, my understanding is that a lot of the Normans were actually Brittons, or Bretons, or from Brittany. A lot of moving around 1500 years ago. But to get an idea of how "French proper" it was, look at some of the conflicts of the next few hundred years! The Normans were Bretons? I don't think so... The Bretons were a Celtic people who settled in Brittany around the fifth century. Regarding the Normans - or Vikings that settled in France... Wherever the Vikings went, they tending to lose their identity. They went to Russia. They became Russian. (the name Russia actually comes from the Vikings). They went to Ireland and became Irish... (Unlike the Irish who seem to make everyone Irish around them. ;D) They went to Scotland and became Scottish. (Robert the Bruce was of Norman ancestry). Anyway, after the Normans ("Northmen") settled in France, they became French. |
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Post by Count Zero on Sept 13, 2010 20:46:21 GMT -4
... the USSR, the USA and the UK were allies in World War Two, because they had a common interest - defeating Germany. Once Germany was defeated, the former allies' interests diverged, leading to the Cold War. Often overlooked is that Nazi Germany and the USSR signed a non-aggression pact in 1939, and the USSR also invaded and carved-up Poland in September of that year. I seem to recall an anecdote from a few decades back, when Field Marshall Montgomery (retired) was accosted at a party by a Soviet diplomat who tried to remind him of how the Soviet Union was attacked by the Germans in 1941. "Monty" calmly replied, "Well, they hit us pretty hard too, during The Blitz, but of course, that was in 1940, when you were still allied with the Nazis." |
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Post by Ginnie on Sept 13, 2010 21:13:43 GMT -4
... the USSR, the USA and the UK were allies in World War Two, because they had a common interest - defeating Germany. Once Germany was defeated, the former allies' interests diverged, leading to the Cold War. Often overlooked is that Nazi Germany and the USSR signed a non-aggression pact in 1939, and the USSR also invaded and carved-up Poland in September of that year. I seem to recall an anecdote from a few decades back, when Field Marshall Montgomery (retired) was accosted at a party by a Soviet diplomat who tried to remind him of how the Soviet Union was attacked by the Germans in 1941. "Monty" calmly replied, "Well, they hit us pretty hard too, during The Blitz, but of course, that was in 1940, when you were still allied with the Nazis." Good story. BTW CZ, is that you in your avatar? |
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Post by gillianren on Sept 13, 2010 23:33:22 GMT -4
The Normans were Bretons? I don't think so... The Bretons were a Celtic people who settled in Brittany around the fifth century. My Gaelic teacher was wrong! |
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Sept 14, 2010 11:29:30 GMT -4
The Normans who invaded Engand in 1066 were already French, and the English court spoke predominently Norman French until the time of Henry V (1417 - the scene from Shakespeare's play of Henry not knowing how to speak French is pure artistic license).
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Post by drewid on Sept 14, 2010 12:52:12 GMT -4
So yeah, back to the cold war. I'm currently reading a history of MI5. The author had open access to a lot of files. He tells a story of a constant battle against Russian/bolshevik/communist agents prior to and during WW1, and total mistrust of Stalin's machine from the point of the Russian revolution onwards. Lots of activity in the 1930s as well as during WW2.
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Post by PeterB on Sept 14, 2010 13:57:00 GMT -4
Actually, my understanding is that a lot of the Normans were actually Brittons, or Bretons, or from Brittany. A lot of moving around 1500 years ago. But to get an idea of how "French proper" it was, look at some of the conflicts of the next few hundred years! The Normans were Bretons? I don't think so... The Bretons were a Celtic people who settled in Brittany around the fifth century. You're both sort of right. The Bretons were descended from post-Roman British who emigrated from Britain to Armorica (as it was known then) in the 5th century to get away from Saxons. William the Conqueror's army included a contingent of Bretons, although most of the soldiers were Norman. |
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Post by PeterB on Sept 14, 2010 13:59:18 GMT -4
The Normans who invaded Engand in 1066 were already French, and the English court spoke predominently Norman French until the time of Henry V (1417 - the scene from Shakespeare's play of Henry not knowing how to speak French is pure artistic license). One minor quibble - Norman French as it was spoken in England in the 15th century was unintelligible to the Parisian French. However, I don't know whether Henry V also knew proper French. |
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Post by gillianren on Sept 14, 2010 14:17:26 GMT -4
As I recall, Shakespeare didn't think so, but take that for what it's worth.
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raven
Jupiter
That ain't Earth, kiddies.
Posts: 509
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Post by raven on Sept 14, 2010 14:37:06 GMT -4
Yeah, the Bard had clocks in Julius Caesar, historical accuracy wasn't exactly his point.
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Post by gillianren on Sept 14, 2010 19:17:31 GMT -4
Chiming clocks, as I recall. And there's the great Richard III debate.
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