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Post by Vincent McConnell on Aug 11, 2011 4:24:23 GMT -4
So let the astronauts defend themselves. How noble of you. The astronauts are not in a position to defend themselves against the accusations of a loudmouth tucked away in an obscure YouTube channel, surrounded by his devoted legion of sycophants. That's where ordinary people interested in revealing truth and correcting disinformation step in to fill the void. Your "conversion" is clearly not complete. I think you're still a better fit for Jarrah's walled garden, than posing as an Apollo believer elsewhere. . Honestly, I do believe they went to the moon, fully. But WHY, WHY, must you fight the astronauts battles. First of all they don't give a damn, Eugene Cernan quoted himself, "I don't give a damn about all that sh*t." Most of the world knows they went to the moon. I bet if Neil Armstrong knew about Jarrah White, he wouldn't care about the conspiracy claims. Neil knows he went and so do the other 23 guys. These guys were war heroes in their time. They don't need someone on the internet fighting their battles for them. I'm not trying to be mean to you, but you seem to have taken a serious disliking to me just because I defend Jarrah White... Not sure what's up with that... -Vincent
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Post by gwiz on Aug 11, 2011 4:42:04 GMT -4
What's the point of trashing Jarrah if he has never personally said anything bad to you? Apart from the big laughs I get from things like his "polar orbit"? Seriously, as an aerospace engineer I find his accusations about the hoax to be personally insulting. He is effectively claiming that people like me lie about their competence.
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Post by Vincent McConnell on Aug 11, 2011 4:44:33 GMT -4
What's the point of trashing Jarrah if he has never personally said anything bad to you? Apart from the big laughs I get from things like his "polar orbit"? Seriously, as an aerospace engineer I find his accusations about the hoax to be personally insulting. He is effectively claiming that people like me lie about their competence. Ok. People "like you". Not "you".
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Post by echnaton on Aug 11, 2011 10:44:31 GMT -4
These guys were war heroes in their time. They don't need someone on the internet fighting their battles for them. The purpose of this board has never been to fight someone else's fight. The purpose, as I have perceived it, is to provide as thorough of a catalogue of claims presented by Apollo hoax believers and respond to those claims with factual answers. We do this mostly by allowing hoax believers to state their own thoughts in their own words to avoid charges of censoring or mis-characterizing the claims. We respond mostly by asking for clarification of claims and providing factual and rational rebuttals. We do this because we care about the truth and share a passion for knowledge about the Apollo missions. The astronauts should stay out of the fray, because their involvement with hoax proponents would only serve to give the proponents more attention. Instead the loudest hoax proponents of today are left to wallow in their own little cesspools on YouTube.
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Post by JayUtah on Aug 11, 2011 10:45:24 GMT -4
Apollo is much bigger than just the astronauts. Jarrah White has publicly labeled many highly skilled and honorable people as frauds and liars, apparently just so he can enjoy a few minutes of personal fame. In addition he has made it a special mission to defame me personally. Anyone who defends the manner in which Jarrah White operates is no friend of mine -- full stop. The flight crews may not care, but there are plenty of people who do. The Apollo missions were a great enterprise, and the industry that accomplished it should be justly recognized for it in the face of ignorant and self-serving accusations to the contrary.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 11, 2011 12:23:41 GMT -4
The battle against ignorance is my fight.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Aug 11, 2011 14:54:49 GMT -4
The battle against ignorance is my fight. Sadly, you're greatly outnumbered.
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Post by gillianren on Aug 11, 2011 15:00:42 GMT -4
Yeah, I know, but the harder I work, the greater the chance that I can win converts. The more of us there are fighting, the less we're outnumbered by in the long run.
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Post by redneckr0nin on Aug 11, 2011 15:26:08 GMT -4
The battle against ignorance is my fight. Sadly, you're greatly outnumbered. Yeah by at least 6 to 1 globally!
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Post by RAF on Aug 11, 2011 16:40:01 GMT -4
Resorting to personal attacks and insults is only the indication of a VERY poor argument. If Svector needs to use this tactics, he clearly does not belong on the forums and should not be taken seriously by either side. I can easily imagine how Svector became enraged trying to deal with a personality such as "poor ol" Jarrah. Sure he lost control. I've done the same on numerous occasions, but that does not change the fact that Jarrah is wrong. ...but lets reverse things for a bit here, ok? Lets look at Jarrah's behavior regarding personal attacks and insults... What in the HELL do you call it when an obscure internet "personality" characterizes the entire astronaut corp as liars. ...Or is it only a personal attack if it's against you or Jarrah?
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Post by RAF on Aug 11, 2011 16:59:45 GMT -4
Honestly, I do believe they went to the moon, fully. Ya know what, I don't believe you. Why must you fight Jarrah's "battles"? ...and it is completely irrelevant what Cernan says, "I" give a **** about it. It's not hard to "figure out". Consider where you are. Think of all those here who have lived the space program for the past 50 years...then some ignorant jerk comes along and without any evidence whatsoever says that all those amazing accomplishments were a lie. That is what you are "defending"...the "right" to ignorance. Not so noble a "cause" is it.
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Post by ka9q on Aug 11, 2011 17:34:37 GMT -4
But WHY, WHY, must you fight the astronauts battles. First of all they don't give a damn, Eugene Cernan quoted himself, "I don't give a damn about all that sh*t." For all the reasons Jay, Bob, Gillian, echnaton and others have already given - and more. Hoax advocates often complain of being picked on or personally attacked. Yet their claims are inherently a very personal attack, not just on the handful of astronauts who actually flew on Apollo but also the 400,000 people who worked on it. Not only do they accuse all the astronauts of lying but many (if not all) of those 400,000 as well. Even most hoax advocates realize the absurdity of 400,000 people all maintaining a convincing lie for 40+ years, so they have a fallback position: only the astronauts and top NASA management knew it was a lie; everyone else was simply duped into thinking they were working on real moon missions. But this is just as offensive, as it deeply insults the intelligence of an awful lot of very smart, talented, motivated and hardworking people, nearly all private citizens who hardly deserve such treatment. Indeed, the moon hoax really insults everyone, not just the people who worked on Apollo. It paints a deeply cynical view of human beings as incompetent, deceitful and stupid. Apollo demonstrated that human beings really can, when suitably motivated, organize themselves on a very large scale for a common goal other than killing each other or merely enriching themselves. It created hope that we can solve complex problems for the benefit all of humanity when we really want to. Just consider the saying that rapidly became a cliche after Apollo 11: "If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we ....?" And this optimistic view just doesn't seem to fit the hoaxers' preferred view of the human species.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 11, 2011 20:58:36 GMT -4
The battle against ignorance is my fight. With all respect to Einstein..... Only the universe and ignorance is infinite, and we're not entirely sure about the universe.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 11, 2011 21:24:04 GMT -4
But WHY, WHY, must you fight the astronauts battles. First of all they don't give a damn, Eugene Cernan quoted himself, "I don't give a damn about all that sh*t." For all the reasons Jay, Bob, Gillian, echnaton and others have already given - and more. Ditto. No one is fighting the astronauts battles. I cannot speak for others, but my informed guess is that we probably all have the same reason for contributing to this forum. We've just arrived here by different routes based on different experiences. I have always been consistent about this, and it is not about Apollo for me. I couldn't really care either way if it was a flight to the moon or trips to the deepest parts of the Pacific ocean. It is an amazing technological accomplishment that is denigrated by people who can barely add up, count or put forward a logical/coherent argument. Why is that such a problem for me? I see the likes of Jarrah White, David Percy, Ralph Rene, Bill Kaysing, Jack White, James Collier, Marcus Allen, Bart Sibrel and all the other HBs as free loaders on society. They want their 15 minutes of fame and will do anything to get it, showing complete disregard for anyone else. I'll ask you a simple question and I want a simple answer Vincent. How would you feel if you achieved your ambition of joining the USMC and becoming a US Marine. You've trained hard for your basic training, you've sweated the miles to qualify to wear the uniform of a marine, and then someone tells you they think you are a fake. How would that make you feel? Be honest, inside, how would you feel after all your hard work and dedication? There are many engineers and scientists that write at these boards. There are also many people that have no qualifications in these fields. They have all put it in the hard miles to study and understand the subject of Apollo and the science that surrounds it. Yet along comes some loud mouthed idiot who cannot count, perform basic arithmetic manipulation, puts together logically inconsistent arguments and accuses people of being frauds or towing the party line. The people here tend to feel a little bit aggrieved. Personally, I find the HBer a cheap insult to humanity and the advances that we have made in science in the last 40 years. What I find particularly offensive is that the HBer uses the technologies of communications, aerospace engineering, computing etc to lay waste to the scientists and engineers that have provided him with those tools. He accuses them of such crimes as 'towing the party line' or 'fraud and lying', yet at the same time he exploits the fruits of their labour. I find that a hard pill to swallow. For me, the sooner they are cast to the dustbin of humanity the better. I have no sense of sadness for the passing of Rene and Kaysing. Yes, I'm sure they had families and friends who were saddened by their passing, but I couldn't care about them as people. Rene contributed nothing but hatred to the world, and Kaysing started a big lie. I find that hard to forgive. In the end they spent their last days as sad, crackpot loners, and it was richly deserved. You get out of life what you put in. If Jarrah White, Jack White, Bart Sibrel and others go the same way, you know what? I won't care. I won't care a dot. Diddly. You won't find a tear rolling down my face. Not an ounce of compassion, a sense or mourning or an expression of sadness. They are all 15 minutes wannabees that deserve nothing but to wallow in the world that they create around them. Call me hard, call me uncaring. I don't really care.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Aug 11, 2011 22:53:26 GMT -4
The fact of the matter is the most HBs already delude themselves that those that oppose them are NASA stoges in the employ of NASA, the CIA, NSA, or other sinister acronym, as no "real" person could possibly believe the "NASA lies" or be willing to defend them for no other reason than that the HB is wrong and spreading untruths. If the only ones that did oppose them were those that had a stake in Apollo then their whole ad hominem position would be vidicated (though certainly not validated.) It's the fact that it's not just those that had a stake in Apollo that face these nutters, and in fact the vast majority of those that were there that don't partake in these things, that quickly shows up the HBs for what they are. As Gene Cernan says at the end of In the Shadow of The Moon, "Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me." The Astronauts don't have to defend it, they know it happened, they lived it, they don't have to put up with wastes of space. I come across this on a search, thought people might be interested to know we're famous, well as "Jay's Crew," lol.
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