Interesting about gestures

[Fnord Fred]

moonman said:

As you know, Buzz punched a reporter in the head once when asked about the mission. This is not what someone would do if they were telling the truth. This is the reaction of someone who is lying. Like it or not, Buzz assaulted the reporter right on camera yet Buzz was never charged. He wasn't charged because the case would come to court and he would have to testify under oath. If you live in America, go punch someone in the head and see if you don't get charged.

He 'got away with it' because Sibrel had been berating him and had been in his face for quite a while before the punch was thrown.

Of course, you'd have known that if you'd had a full copy of the conversation instead of Sibrel's considerably edited version of events.

[nomuse]

Riiiight. Moon Man, watch the complete video. Tell yourself you, me, or anyone else you know wouldn't have clobbered Bart at that moment.

Imagine walking up to Sergeant York and saying "Say, I heard you were actually a coward and deserter! Want to comment on the truth of your wild, self-aggrandizing stories?" And then start pushing him in the chest, backing him up against a wall.

Heck, try that trick on any of the "senior" volunteers I work with at the theater, and see how they knuckle down to your abusive behavior. Or if they make you back off in no uncertain terms.

If you watch the complete video, its rather a surprise _Siebral_ wasn't charged.

[lordoftherings]

Moon Man
there are things less vivid than punching , which make them interesting and needing professionals.

[Moon Man]

fnordfred said:

moonman said:

As you know, Buzz punched a reporter in the head once when asked about the mission. This is not what someone would do if they were telling the truth. This is the reaction of someone who is lying. Like it or not, Buzz assaulted the reporter right on camera yet Buzz was never charged. He wasn't charged because the case would come to court and he would have to testify under oath. If you live in America, go punch someone in the head and see if you don't get charged.

He 'got away with it' because Sibrel had been berating him and had been in his face for quite a while before the punch was thrown.

Of course, you'd have known that if you'd had a full copy of the conversation instead of Sibrel's considerably edited version of events.

Please. That is not a defense to assault. It's not like a judge heard the case and accepted the this defence. He wasn't even charged.

[nomuse]

Oh, so I can back a 65-year old man against a wall in front of his family, put my hand on his chest and push him while yelling at him...? I don't know where you practice law, but around here I'd be in serious trouble.

[Fnord Fred]

moonman said:

fnordfred said:

He 'got away with it' because Sibrel had been berating him and had been in his face for quite a while before the punch was thrown.

Of course, you'd have known that if you'd had a full copy of the conversation instead of Sibrel's considerably edited version of events.

Please. That is not a defense to assault. It's not like a judge heard the case and accepted the this defence. He wasn't even charged.

They probably didn't need to: all they needed to see was the ENTIRE video and the cops wouldn't even have contemplated going further with the case. They knew they couldn't put Buzz in jail for it, and they probably didn't want to considering what a jerk Sibrel was being.

Like nomuse said, it's surprising Sibrel wasn't charged for instigating a fight, etc.

[Al Johnston]

The LA county District Attorney decided Aldrin had no case to answer: probably because he had mede several attempts to peacably avoid Sibrel's provocation, as evidenced by the video.

[Count Zero]

lordoftherings said:

what is LACon?

It was the World Science Fiction Convention, which was held in Los Angeles that year. SF cons are a blast. The panels aren't limited to just SF weiters & editors. They include scientists, historians futurists and the occasional astronaut.

[PhantomWolf]

Anything from the NASAScam site should be taken with a rather large grain of salt, his Apollo knowledge is worse than Moon Man's.


As to Neil's uncomfortableness with speaking, he suffers from something a lot of people do, anxiety and a fear of public speaking. He always has, and as such he does seem, and is, uncomfortable in the spotlight, and he always has been. His body language is a result of being uncomfortable in public situations, not with being uncomfortable in what he's saying. Here's a passage from the book "A Fire on the Moon" which was written about Apollo 11.This is the author's view of Armstrong at a preflight press briefing.

"So the conference dragged on. While the focus of the attention was naturally on Armstrong for commanding the flight, he seemed in the begining to be the least at ease. He spoke with long pauses, he searched for words. When words came out, their ordinary content made the wait seem excessive. He minted no phrases. 'We are here' ... a pause .... 'to be able to talk about this attempt' ... a real pause, as if the next experience were ineffable but with patience would yet be captured ... 'because of the success of four previous Apollo command flights' ... pause as if to pick up something he had left out ... 'and a number of unmanned flights.' A shy smile. 'Each of these flights' - he was more woden than young Robert Taylor, young Don Ameche, young Randolph Scott - 'contributed in a great way' ... deprecatory smile ... 'to this flight.' As a speaker he was all but limp - still it did not leave him unremarkable. Certainly the knowledge that he was an astronaut restored his stature, yet even if he had been a junior executive accepting an award, Armstrong would have presented a quality that was arresting, for he was extraordinarily remote. He was simply not like other men. He would have been more extraordinary in fact if he had just been a salesman making a modest inept dull little speech, for then one would be forced to wonder how he had ever gotten his job, how he could sell even one item, how in fact he could get out of bed in the morning.

A Fire on the Moon, Norman Mailer. pg 25-26

[PeterB]

LordOfTheRings

As others have pointed out, Neil Armstrong is a very private man. Even when he was a test pilot, before he joined NASA, he and his wife lived away from the other test pilots he flew with. Put a private (even shy) man in front of a large crowd, and they'll be very nervous.

Compare him with Dave Scott from Apollo 15. There are videos of him talking to large audiences and appearing on a TV talk show. He speaks smoothly and clearly, and he obviously isn't concerned by appearing in front of a large crowd.

Let me ask you how you feel talking in front of a large crowd? Does it make you nervous? Do you speak clearly or do you occasionally mumble?

[nomuse]

Repeat yourself much?

This is not just a gross mis-characterization of the incident, it is a laughable bit of logic.

If someone came up to you and accused you to your face of being a serial rapist, would you quietly demur, or would you yell "Cripes! No!" back to him? Your logic seems to be that an angry reaction proves your guilt.

This wasn't the first time Bart had asked this question. Problem was, he'd never accept the simple answer "yes" (remind you of anyone?) He'd bugged a number of the astronauts. Some of them tried to make him happy, answering his questions, even swearing on his bible. But nothing would make him stop; he never believed them no matter what they said, and he wouldn't let them alone. After a while, the astronauts (Buzz included) found it easier to try to ignore him.

So Bart got clever. He found a front man, he lied, he ambushed Buzz outside the man's hotel. And he was extremely confrontational. He wouldn't take "go away" for answer, and it certainly didn't seem -- based on his past record -- that any other answer would satisfy him and make him go away.

If you have any imagination you might be able to place yourself in that situation. Now add that you are getting on in years, the guy that's in your face is using his youth and strength to physically harrass you, and your family is nearby.

Oh, yeah. Poor Bart. A moment later he's shouting to his camera man, making sure he got the whole thing on film.

[tofu]

Notice that Sibrel's head goes back and to the left.

back and to the left.

back and to the left.

I think the video is a fake.

[PhantomWolf]

well it's diffinately mirrored becuse the 360 is back the front.

[LunarOrbit]

moonman said:

As you know, Buzz punched a reporter in the head once when asked about the mission.

Buzz Aldrin punched a guy named Bart Sibrel. Calling Sibrel a reporter is a huge stretch of the imagination... he is nothing but a stalker.

I have seen the entire video... not just the small clip of it that shows the punch. It's clear that Sibrel was harrassing Aldrin who only wanted to leave.

Try trapping a grizzly bear in a cage and then poke him with a big stick for half an hour... now get into the cage with the bear. Do you expect it to perform circus tricks for you, or tear you to pieces? Now ask yourself, after being harrassed for twenty minutes by Sibrel, why would Aldrin want to talk to him? Why shouldn't he have hit Sibrel under those kinds of circumstances?

This is not what someone would do if they were telling the truth.

Sure it is. If someone was harrassing me and calling me a liar and a thief I might punch them too.

This is the reaction of someone who is lying.

No, it's the reaction of someone who was trapped like an animal, poked in the chest with a bible, harrassed, and called a liar and a thief. Under the circumstances I do not blame Buzz for getting frustrated to the point of punching Sibrel.

Like it or not, Buzz assaulted the reporter right on camera yet Buzz was never charged.

He was never charged because the police took the circumstances leading up to the assault into consideration. In other words, they believed Sibrel deserved it.

[lonewulf]

For the record:

Quoting Moon Man:
like it or not...

I DO like it when a man defends himself from a stalker. ;D