Stealth Apollo?

[politik]

Is it possible to hide a spacecraft in orbit? so that it could not be seen or detected like a stealth plane?

(And no I don't believe Apollo was hoaxed for anyone wondering)

[pzkpfw]

Hi,

There's a goodish series of novels by Piers Anthony (Refugee, ...) where Earth politics (of the time it was written) is extrapolated into space; with the different planets run by certain Earth nations. (U.S. had Jupiter, U.S.S.R. had Uranus or Saturn...)

The big nations had the equivalent of nuclear submarines - space ships that would lurk near "enemy" planets ready to unleash the "big one".

One of their main problem was ensuring they never blocked the light of any particular star. So computers on the "subs" would continually shift them (without enabling detection of the engines?) so that computers on the planet below would never see their shadow...

That'd be a bit of programming.

Cheers,

[Van Rijn]

politik said:

Is it possible to hide a spacecraft in orbit? so that it could not be seen or detected like a stealth plane?

(And no I don't believe Apollo was hoaxed for anyone wondering)

Kinda sorta. Here's an article of an earlier stealth spysat attempt:

msnbc.msn.com/id/6782264/

and another article on the subject:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56171-2004Dec10.html

Google on "stealth misty satellite"

Getting a satellite into space without it being seen can be a bit tricky, and it generally isn't that hard to detect objects in low orbit, so special tricks are required and may not be completely effective. However, if a satellite is in high orbit and isn't making obvious broadcasts, it may not be possible to see it.

[gwiz]

This link shows that they got a large satellite, probably comparable to the Apollo CSM in size, to below naked eye visibility, though it was at a rather higher altitude than the typical Apollo earth orbit.

[Bob B.]

If one were trying to hide Apollo in Earth orbit you have to realized it would need to be visible for the first couple hours and then made stealthy after the time of TLI. It is hard enough to make something stealthy, but to be able to suddenly turn on that capability is harder still.

[PhantomWolf]

How about if you painted it with the matte black paint like the B2 and SR-71 has, then put silver panels over it. You could be seen because of the panels to start with but then when you do the "burn" you shed the panels leaving the matte black finish.

[Count Zero]

Maintaining thermal control on a black spacecraft may be tricky.

[Al Johnston]

And the jettisoned panels might be a tad conspicuous....

[lonewulf]

Let the panels "slide under" the spacecraft's outer hull, is what I would do. Make a three-layered spacecraft, to keep optimum pressure controls, and let the outer "silver" hull slide in between the two, leaving only nice black finish.

As for thermal controls, I'm not so sure on that -- I'm no expert on thermodynamics.

[Mr Gorsky]

lonewulf said:

As for thermal controls, I'm not so sure on that -- I'm no expert on thermodynamics.

Dang! Where's Moon Man when we need him?

[Count Zero]

lonewulf said:

Let the panels "slide under" the spacecraft's outer hull, is what I would do. Make a three-layered spacecraft, to keep optimum pressure controls, and let the outer "silver" hull slide in between the two, leaving only nice black finish.

Too heavy, too complicated (though it would look cool in a James Bond-ish sort of way).

Just use a shroud that separates at around the same time as the second stage. This would occur beyond camera range, and the shroud-halves would be interpreted as pieces of the jettisoned stage falling into the ocean.

Heat is a real problem. You've got to get rid of the heat from the electronics somehow. Also, a black spacecraft may be optically invisible, but after a few minutes in the sun it will be quite prominent in infra-red.

[lonewulf]

Well, it's a stealth aircraft, for one. So you don't even need the outside hull to "slide into" the two layers.... so yeah, you can do it far more simply. For two, in the times of needing space aircraft for combat, we'd probably construct them in space; weight wouldn't really be an issue then.

[Bob B.]

bob said:

If one were trying to hide Apollo in Earth orbit you have to realized it would need to be visible for the first couple hours and then made stealthy after the time of TLI. It is hard enough to make something stealthy, but to be able to suddenly turn on that capability is harder still.

I may have overstated the above problem. Before TLI the CSM is still attached to the S-IVB, so make the CSM steathy and separate it from the visible S-IVB prior to TLI. People will see the S-IVB thinking is it the complete spacecraft while the CSM slips away unobserved and stays in Earth orbit.

Is it really possible to make a steathy spacecraft? It might be hidden visually by painting it black, but it will still be an infrared and radar target. And how do you make it black in orbit and not-black on the launch pad and after recovery? And of course there are other difficulties that make "the CSM stayed in Earth orbit" hoax scenario problematic. For instance, the reentry trajectory would be all wrong. Even if the stealth problem could be worked out, the scenario fails for other reasons.

[lonewulf]

I love you, Bob B., even if you poop on my dreams.

[piper]

So then there are photos of the Apollo crafts in near Earth orbit or just on their way to the Moon which were taken from the ground, while the craft were still visible?

Anyone have a link to some?