The Smoking Gun of Bart's "Smoking Gun" Footage

[Jason Thompson]

Turbonium, I can't help but think you are taking the term 'up against the window' too literally. You seem to think it means the lens was resting flat against the window pane, thus meaning it couldn't be moved or have its orientation altered. Why?

There is nothing to suggest that the astronauts had it pressed against the window, except your over-literal interpretation. Thus your entire argument falls down because you have no basis for it.

As for something blocking the view, you do know that the windows are quite thick, that they are actually inset and not flush with the external surface, and that at least the hatch window had a different shape internal and external frame?

From where they were shooting they would have had to zoom in a lot to get the Earth to take up as much of the frame as it does, thus meaning any slight motion of the camera would cause it to dance around all over the place. It is also unlikely that the command module would be in the correct orientation for them to simply hold the camera flat against the window and get the Earth dead centre of the frame.

You're arguing from an excessively literal interpretation of a phrase used in describing the astronauts' activites after the event, and using so much backwards logic it's hard to know where to begin.

[Bob B.]

turbonium said:

The claim that the camera was placed close up to the window during this time is conclusively false.

What evidence do you have that the astronauts claimed the camera was placed right up against or very close to the window?

[dwight]

The effect of something blocking the earth is precisely the edge of the window. On some occasions Turbonium the camera was placed right up to the window, in the case of the video you link to, the camera was placed close to the window. Given the zoom lens feature, what I'm seeing is what I would expect to see. The way the "blockage article" appears is completely in keeping with the effect of something closer to the lens than the earth is (or background object in a more generic description).

In fact, today while doing video conferencing, I showed my folks the view outside, and the same type of situation happened, that is the frame of the window blocked the objects in the background. Given I was holding the camera, it was amazing how similar the unwanted movement affected the view out of the window.

I am puzzled as to why are not aware of such nuances of videography. It is something easily duplicated. The voice transcripts do not, anywhere in the mission say "I am holding the camera flush to the window pane" or something similar, they are talking about moving from one location to another sometimes including a window.

Arguing about the semantics of what "at the window" means is a little too extreme if you ask me. The camera was handheld in a weightless environment, the camera was bulky, the astronauts couldnt keep still without being harnessed to the spacecraft. Holding a lens to the glass pane in a weightless scenario creates more stability problems than it would solve. Each time the camera lens would strike the pane, it would result in the camera and astronaut being moved in the opposite direction.

I am afraid I dont see any trickery at all. I see poor framing, but thats more aesthetics than anything else.

[PhantomWolf]

If the camera had truly been held right up to the window, or even held a few inches away from the window, it would be impossible to move the camera around this radically completely within the small window frame.

Why? The camera isn't fixed in the window, or even by someone standing on the ground, it's being used by an astronaut who is floating in the cabin, and there is a lot of movement on the video, why can't it have moved far enough to have the window frame block it?. Besides the camera was about a foot from the window as can be seen below.

[Kiwi]

Some of you guys might want to view the transcriptions of the dialogue (when I could understand it) during the first two unscheduled transmissions (see first two posts), and the details of the views of Earth during those two plus the scheduled broadcast (recently added in reply 4).
apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=apollo&action=display&thread=1120036997

For future reference, the details are in the thread, "Apollo 11: Transcription of TV transmissions" in the section, The Reality of Apollo.

All taken from the Spacecraft Films' Apollo 11 DVDs, Disc 1, "Fly Me to the Moon."

It really is nonsense to claim the camera was up against the window all the time. Most of the time it was hardly ever still and moved around almost constantly.

If someone grovels and pleads enough I might be persuaded to do the dialogue from the scheduled broadcast, but that is easier to find than the unscheduled try-out transmissions, so I might not too.

[turbonium]

So in the video image capture below.....



What is the black area? Space, the darkened CM interior, or both?

If both, then where does space end (inside window edge), and the CM interior begin?

[Jason Thompson]

Oh honestly! How do you expect people to be able to answer which bit of black is what in a single, out-of-context frame?

'The thing about a black hole, its main distinguishing feature, is it's black. And the thing about space, the colour of space, your basic space colour, is it's black. So how are you supposed to see 'em?'

[Count Zero]

turbonium said:

So in the video image capture below.....

What is the black area? Space, the darkened CM interior, or both?

If both, then where does space end (inside window edge), and the CM interior begin?

Who cares?

[gwiz]

jasonthompson said:

Oh honestly! How do you expect people to be able to answer which bit of black is what in a single, out-of-context frame?

You know the drill, turbonium. At least give us the time for that frame, don't expect us to search for it ourselves.

[nomuse]

Or maybe turbonium could do the work. Field of view of the camera at maximum zoom versus size of window would give you how far you could move from said window without the frame appearing in the shot. As a bonus, find the angular size of the Earth at that point in the flight, and compare that to the percentage of the field of view to derive the lens.

[PhantomWolf]

Well if he'd posted this one then we might have been able to answer.



But then this comes from footage he'll never see because according to BS it doesn't exist and I have yet to see Turbonium ever acknowledge it either.

[Kiwi]

turbonium said:

So in the video image capture below.....

What is the black area? Space, the darkened CM interior, or both?

If both, then where does space end (inside window edge), and the CM interior begin?

You've read this post? No 4 in
Apollo 11: Transcription of TV transmissions
where it describes exactly when you can see the window frames and internal fittings which at various times obscure the Earth. E.g.: 39:40 Different parts of window frame cover Earth for 16 seconds

Also seen the posts above it to compare the real, unedited dialogue with the edited Bartfootage?

[turbonium]

The black is entirely the darkened CM interior. Below is a capture showing them manipulating a bracket or some other object that exactly frames the Earth...

[nomuse]

The...huh? You mean, not a scrap of sky is ever seen? Oh, wait...you are trying to say there was no Earth, just a picture hung over the window. Which for some reason lacked a bracket so it wobbled madly all over the place. Or.....

Okay, I'm lost. What _are_ you saying?

[Kiwi]

turbonium said:

The black is entirely the darkened CM interior.

Umm, in that case we wouldn't see the earth, would we? There has to be some window in the picture for the earth to be visible through it. This is the shot here:
0:53:47 Earth partly obstructed by internal fittings.

The fitting looks to me like a cable -- perhaps it's a camera cable. Remember that it would be floating weightlessly.

However, having watched, a few times, all 1:16:50 of the three TV transmissions on the Spacecraft Film's DVDs, I can't at all agree that in the first picture above, where you query the blackness, it necessarily includes the spacecraft interior because it depends entirely on whether the camera is close to the window or not. At times it is obviously attached to something rigid and therefore may indeed be close to the window because Mike Collins rotates it 180 degrees. The transcript even tells us:

0:47:11 Armstrong: I can see on the monitor the thing you were talking about but right now I can't get my eye to the window to pick out just where it crosses the shoreline.

0:51:32 Collins: Trying to fit everybody into the window.

0:52:22 Armstrong: Unfortunately, we only have one window that has a view of the earth and it's filled up with the TV camera so your view now is probably better than ours is.

0:54:13 Houston (Duke): Apollo 11, Houston. It appears to us that we're seeing a view from outside plus a little of the inside. It appears you've taken the camera away from the left window now. Over.

0:54:37 Houston (Duke): We can still see the earth through the left window and it appears that we can see a floodlight off to the left, either that or some sun shafting through the hatch window.
0:54:52 Collins: It's a floodlight.


Why don't you get the Spacecraft DVDs and watch them? You'd be doing some real research and they might answer your queries if you can understand them.

But why, exactly, are we going on about a bit of blackness anyway, and what is the great mystery?