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Post by sts60 on Nov 7, 2007 13:14:14 GMT -4
But my friend is a software engineer and when we start talking about the moon rocks, he eventually admits "Alright, I don't believe they faked it, but, like Malder on The X-Files 'I want to believe' ".
This sort of attitude just kills me. Why would anyone want to believe that we little humans could not achieve something so wonderful?
I am not surprised by the X-Files reference, though. The poster for the XF movie had the tagline, "Fight the Future", which neatly summarizes the cramped, fearful worldview of the conspiracist. Personally, I'd much rather fight for the future.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 7, 2007 13:58:53 GMT -4
And there is considerable value in fighting the present. Which is to say, it is important to have an accurate view of the current state of affairs so that we can effectively manage resources in order to bring about improvement. Imaginary enemies can never be overcome, and when irrationally fearful people band together and demand that real resources be allocated to combat pretended enemies, we lose ground against the real enemies.
This is especially true of people who demand that investigative and scientific resources be dedicated to dispelling 9/11 conspiracy theories, which never had any scientific validity in the first place. There is a need to investigate and correct conditions that led to 9/11 and affected our ability to detect, defend, and respond on that day. That is hampered by chasing phantoms conjured up by the insistently ignorant.
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Nov 7, 2007 14:49:09 GMT -4
This sort of attitude just kills me. Why would anyone want to believe that we little humans could not achieve something so wonderful? This has always been one of my biggest gripes with these conspiracy nut cases. They want to be members of a small and insignificant species rather than one that is capable of great accomplishments. How horrible life must be when you're a CT?
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Post by AtomicDog on Nov 7, 2007 15:31:12 GMT -4
This sort of attitude just kills me. Why would anyone want to believe that we little humans could not achieve something so wonderful? This has always been one of my biggest gripes with these conspiracy nut cases. They want to be members of a small and insignificant species rather than one that is capable of great accomplishments. How horrible life must be when you're a CT? "It's a dangerous universe out there...If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid." - Q, Q Who?I think that HBs and conspiracy theorists of all stripes are the ones hiding under their beds; they are the ones that fear the future.
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Post by PhantomWolf on Nov 7, 2007 17:07:57 GMT -4
So could Revenge of the SithI thought Revenge of the Sith was really good, actually. It's one of my favourite Star Wars movies (I would rank it third after ESB and ANH, but before ROTJ which I thought was almost ruined by the Ewoks). The other two prequels were disappointing, but I still probably like them more than most people. I wouldn't put it at number 3, but then I rate RotJ higher. The Ewoks are the bacteria of War of the Worlds, a primitive race that shifts the tide between the humanity of the Rebel forces and the industry of the Imperials. If you look at the way Lucas created the two sides, the rebels are very "human" in that they don't wear a lot of armour, their ships are very organic looking and the have compassion and warmth. The Imperials on the other hand are machines. Stormtroopers are hidden behind armour that strips them of their identity, their humanity. Even their names are removed and they are just numbers. Everything about the Empire is high tech and mechanical, even Vader himself (who is a mirror of the Empire.) Remember Obi-Wan's words... "He is more machine now than man, twisted and evil." The same is true of the Empire. He runs this theme through the movies quite often. Things like Tarkin's claim that fear of the Deathstar would keep the systems in line. Even in the prequels we see it being used, the Gungans vs the Driods and later the Jedi vs the Droids. We see the Republic crumble as it turns and switches from Humanity to cloaking that humanity behind what are essentially robots, the clone troopers, hidden behind their armour and programmed to battle. In to this theme then come the Ewoks (originally he wanted to use the Wookies, but with Chewie obviously having some technical knowledge he cut them to 25% the height and hey presto, the Ewok.) Here is a race of totally primitive and non-technological beings who go up against the might of the alien machines, and destroy them, just as the bacteria in War of the Worlds did, something that the machine of the Empire considered to be harmless and of no threat comes back to destroy them. It's a lesson to us to not rely on machines and technology, but instead to embrace our humanity and celebrate that. Okay, so back to Revenge of the Sith. While I have to admit the acting wasn't quite as wooden as it was in Attack of the Clones, it was still poor and that didn't help. There were a lot of plot holes that either weren't filled, or where created and could have been repaired so easily that it almost looked like Lucas just couldn't be bothered doing it. Strangely he did go about trying to weld the two sets together later by altering the originals to match the prequels, when I think with a bit of though t and the strategic placement of items which would be seen in the later movies, he could have done it just as well. The lack of Nebulon Class-B Frigates, Victory Class Star Destroyers, pristine Y-Wings, and Z-95s in the space battle scene is poor in my opinion since all of these ships were well established during the clone wars and their well known and distinctive shapes would have instantly linked the time zones together for the viewers. Even when they did try and link a ship they failed as the Tantive IV in RotS is clearly quite different to the Tantive IV in ANH leading to more questions than answers. Anakin's fall was rather jarring and I felt could have been handled better. It seems that he went from, "Don't kill him it's not the Jedi way" to slaughtering Jedi Younglings in the blink of an eye. Somehow that just didn't ring true. The whole ending was very poorly handled, again in my opinion. It makes a mockery of the later movies where Ben didn't appear to know about Leia until Yoda told him and Leia knowing her mother (when Luke asks if she knew their real mother in RotJ.) Also something that he had promised to explain to fans, the merging of the Jedi with the force, back in Episode 2, was thrown in as an afterthought and made no sense at all. It was almost as if he got to the end of the script and thought, "Ops, I was supposed to do that, oh well better quick add this line." So while it was certainly better than TPM and AotC, it really needed a lot more thought and work. It almost felt, to me, that he wanted to be done with it and so didn't bother working at polishing it as well as it should have been, rather looking at a quick throw together with lots of action and spin off figurines to sell.
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 7, 2007 17:12:55 GMT -4
Conspiracism is not so much about belonging to a small and limited species. It is, but with a corollary that makes a bit of sense in the right context. Conspiracism is about finding a way to live with failure and mediocrity. It's about defining an evil influence that excuses one's failure by imagining an insurmountable obstacle. It's a way of saying, "I would be successful and approved-of but for the unstoppable opposition from the Evil Gubbermint." The persistent notion that one is being "kept down" is actually an ego-boosting mindset, not self-deprecation.
But in order for that mindset to be credible enought, there have to be some contrived examples of the power of the Powers That Be. Staging fake Moon landings isn't mean to say that humans are incapable of reaching the Moon. That's an ancillary premise. The conspiracists then turn around and say that NASA was unbelievably ingenious and omnipotent in the execution of the hoax. NASA's inability to reach the Moon is just what must be true in order to motivate the hoax. It's the hoax that's important: the "successful" deceiving of the world that lends apparent credence to the ability of the PTB to maintain unjust hegemony.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 7, 2007 17:58:50 GMT -4
I wouldn't put it at number 3, but then I rate RotJ higher. This probably deserves its own thread, but let's go for it while we're here. My own order of the movies is: The Empire Strikes BackStar Wars (A New Hope)Revenge of the SithReturn of the JediThe Phantom MenaceAttack of the ClonesI don't rate Return of the Jedi lower just because of the Ewoks. I get what Lucas was going for there with the natural world against the machine (in fact Tolkien did much the same thing in the Lord of the Rings thirty years earlier with the Ents vs. Saruman). The main problem most fans have with the Ewoks is that they are just too obviously cute for the roll they play. If they were a little less obviously teddy bears come to life they might have gone over better. But I primarily rate RotJ lower because of: The lame way the Luke-Leia-Han love triangle is resolved (I like Harrison Ford's idea at the time of having Han die better than the silly secret twins idea that Lucas actually went with, and Obi Wan's character suffers with his transparent "point of view" excuse). The mere cameo appearance of Yoda after all that "you must complete your training" argument in ESB. And the odd idea that Luke will turn to the dark side if he kills the Emperor (he can kill everyone on the first Death Star without any problem, but killing one guy on the second will turn him to evil forever more?). But obviously there would be less toys to sell if he used the same ships. I thought it worked fairly well myself. Anakin had been shown to be the kind of person who goes way overboard in everything he does. He never uses half measures. When he made the choice to try to save Padme by disarming (heh) Mace Windu he took the attitude of "in for a penny in for a pound." Basically he thought "If I'm going to be evil to save Padme then there's no point in holding back." I seem to recall Palpatine saying that he would have to gain strength in the Dark Side quickly in order to save Padme, and killing a bunch of kids would do that quickly. It's arguable whether Ben knew who Leia was before RotJ - when he was saying "that boy is our last hope" he may have simply not considered Leia a possible candidate as a Jedi. He knew Luke had potential because he had partially trained him. Leia having images of her mother and knowing she was sad is a puzzle. I think the official spin is that she saw visions of her mother through the Force. But really, if Padme had survived RotS there would be yet another loose thread. Yeah, that was kind of lame. But then I didn't consider it something that needed explanation in the first place. Things I really liked about Revenge of the Sith include: The more friendly, easy-going relationship between Anakin and Obi Wan. Anakin seems less whinny himself, and more mature. Palpatine. When he becomes the much less subtle, more cartoonishly evil Emperor you almost miss him. The amazing sword fight between Anakin and Obi Wan. After Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace they had a high bar to clear, but I think they did it. For some reason, Yoda fighting the Emperor also looks much less silly than Yoda fighting Dooku did.
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Post by svector on Nov 9, 2007 23:21:15 GMT -4
This sort of attitude just kills me. Why would anyone want to believe that we little humans could not achieve something so wonderful? This has always been one of my biggest gripes with these conspiracy nut cases. They want to be members of a small and insignificant species rather than one that is capable of great accomplishments. How horrible life must be when you're a CT? It's sort of surprising too, just how many of them freely admit to having an emotional stake in the hoax propaganda, and that they willfully and actively protect this "investment" through their biased dissemination of the evidence. HBs are typically not ashamed of the fact that they " want to believe".
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Post by JayUtah on Nov 9, 2007 23:36:43 GMT -4
And sometimes the reverse is true. Look how many hoax believers say they were once big fans of NASA, but the evidence was just too strong for a hoax and so they reluctantly had to conclude NASA had betrayed them.
And how fast that falls apart when you show them the flaws in the hoax theory and they jump right in and defend the flimsiest of arguments.
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Post by Waspie_Dwarf on Nov 10, 2007 0:10:01 GMT -4
HBs are typically not ashamed of the fact that they " want to believe" Wanting to believe I can understand. Wanting to believe that there is a god, wanting to believe in eternal life, wanting to believe in micracles, wanting to believe in the Loch Ness monster. There is nothing to be ashamed of in wanting to believe. The problem with HBs is they want to disbelieve.
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Post by Grand Lunar on Nov 10, 2007 15:28:24 GMT -4
The reasons for dibelief often escape me, though one could speculate.
I often get the impression that HBs distrust the govt. So, knowing that NASA is a govt agency, they feel they must mistrust Apollo's history, and call it a hoax. They'll stop at nothing, even if it means lying.
Funny though that a shuttle conspiracy theory has not made headlines with them. A Mars rover conspiracy exists, but nowhere near the level of Apollo.
Even stranger is that they don't see anything wrong with having double standards toward Apollo and other space missions.
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Post by Tanalia on Nov 10, 2007 16:42:32 GMT -4
I often get the impression that HBs distrust the govt. This seems to be one of the main themes running through the claims we see here. A close second is the idea that these few special people can feel superior in that they have "seen through" the hoax that even fools the experts. No, wait... it fools all the sheeple; the experts are all paid disinformation agents. No, wait...they're not paid, they're kept quiet by the threat of ninja death squads. The same death squads that somehow can't silence the people that see through the hoax... Aaarrghhhh! (head explodes) Sorry, where was I? Ah, yes. well, in any case, these few people are, indeed, "special".
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