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Post by PhantomWolf on Jun 28, 2006 18:34:35 GMT -4
Jones findings were peer-reviewed.
Please name the Structural Engineer or Analytical Chemist that did the review.
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Post by 911: Inside Job on Jun 29, 2006 0:29:12 GMT -4
In summary, we have the following evidence of Thermate causing or at least assisting the WTC towers collapses:
- Video of white smoke rising up from the bottom just before the collapse started.
- Video of yellow (therefore not aluminum) molten metal dripping down the side just before the collapse started,
- Yellow-orange hot steel excavated weeks after the collapses.
- Molten steel residue attached to various steel beams in the wreckage, in close proximity to the edge that was cut. Structural steel simply cannot be melted from a jet fuel/office furniture fire, regardless of intensity or duration.
- Thermate chemical signature in the molten steel residue found on the steel beams that were analyzed by Prof. Jones.
- Beams sliced at 45 degree angles with attached molten residue.
- Thermate can cut through a steel beam in seconds without making a sound.
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Post by scooter on Jun 29, 2006 1:55:20 GMT -4
If they were indeed "peer reviewed", I'd love to hear the comments of the reviewers... The studies resembled something from National Enquirer...certainly not the objective, professional, fact and science based work I was looking for.
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Post by PeterB on Jun 29, 2006 3:04:35 GMT -4
In summary, we have the following evidence of Thermate causing or at least assisting the WTC towers collapses: - Video of white smoke rising up from the bottom just before the collapse started. If this smoke rose up from the bottom of the towers just before the collapse, then has anyone asked the people who were there at the time about the source of the smoke? Why does it have to be smoke from explosives? How do we know this was molten metal? My understanding is that at the range the video was taken, it's as good as impossible to determine exactly what it was. In fact, is there any reason it wasn't liquid plastic from office furniture? When steel breaks, it releases a lot of energy, some of it as heat. The pile of rubble at Ground Zero would have been very good at retaining heat for weeks until it was uncovered. Why couldn't the source of this heat have simply been from snapping steel beams and the fires? When was this residue seen? Do we have any proof it was not from the clean-up process? Is it possible the sulphur found on the steel could have been from car exhausts over the 20-odd years the building was standing? What's the significance of 45 degrees? Why can't a clean-up person cut a steel beam at 45 degrees? Are there union rules about it or something? I dare say several tens of thousands of tons of steel, concrete and miscellaneous building material can cut a steel beam in a fraction of a second. In other words, while the pieces of evidence you've provided may point all in one direction, you also have to demonstrate they don't point in another direction, or other directions.
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Post by nomuse on Jun 29, 2006 4:00:01 GMT -4
I want at some of that silenced thermate. Sounds handy!
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Post by twinstead on Jun 29, 2006 5:43:10 GMT -4
In other words, while the pieces of evidence you've provided may point all in one direction, you also have to demonstrate they don't point in another direction, or other directions.
Yup.
It appears to me that if there is some bit of evidence that allows one to accuse folks of mass murder, one better damn well eliminate any logical alternative explanations first.
To most CTs this is simply an anti-establishment intellectual exorcise.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jun 29, 2006 9:51:50 GMT -4
Jones findings were peer-reviewed. Please name the Structural Engineer or Analytical Chemist that did the review. Peer reviewing is normally done anonymoulsly. David Griffin the editor of the book that will publish his paer told me that no engineers reviewed Jones' paper. If you don't believe me e-mail Griffin yourself
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jun 29, 2006 10:09:11 GMT -4
BYU Physics Prof Finds Thermate in WTC Physical Samples, Building Collapses an Inside JobAuthor: Jacob Hamblin
Based on chemical analysis of WTC structural steel residue, a Brigham Young University physics professor has identified the material as Thermate. Thermate is the controlled demolition explosive thermite plus sulfur. Sulfur cases the thermite to burn hotter, cutting steel quickly and leaving trails of yellow colored residue. photo of wtc steel with diagonal cut, thermate residue
Prof. Steven Jones, who conducted his PhD research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and post-doctoral research at Cornell University and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, has analyzed materials from WTC and has detected the existence of thermate, used for "cutting" the steel support columns, as evident in the photo below.
Dr. Jones is a co-founder of Scholars for 911 Truth.
Dr. Jones in earlier work pointed to thermate as the likely explosive that brought down the WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 skyscrapers. But only recently was physical material analysed in the lab and the presence of thermate announced. The samples were provided Dr. Jones team from redundant sources.
Both BYU and Prof. Jones have been offered additional grants if he would "change the direction" of his research. In addition, there have been threats made by an individual who "is taking action" to stop Steven Jones' research, specifically his experiment with thermites (aluminothermics), on the grounds his work may be helpful to "terrorists". Jones notes that much more detailed information on both thermite and thermate is readily available on the Internet. This is hard evidence that the points to the controlled demolition of the WTC. Prof. Jones obtained his samples from some of the WTC scrap metal that was being used to make a commemorative 9-11 sculpture. Jones has yet to put his claim about thermate in writting. From what I understand he said this during an interview with Alex Jones. I presume he didn't claim to have found thermate itself but the end products of a thermate reaction. Actual thermate should have reacted with the steel. It should be noted there is no independent confirmation of his claim. Important questions that need to be answered are: How did he verify the origin of the material? Could some one be hoaxing him? As noted the residue came from a memorial being made from WTC scrap. Thermate and thermite are frequently and routinely used in welding but only rarely in cutting steel. Could the residue have come from welding? Did he confirm his findings with a chemist? Could the residue have come from the debris pile? Most of the components of thermite and thermate (sulfur, iron and aluminum) would have been found in abundance in the WTC rubble pile which had hot spots that possibly were as hot as 1500 F weeks after 9/11. It would be helpful if Jones would put this claim in writing and address some the points above as well as disclose the exact results of the analysis.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jun 29, 2006 10:17:40 GMT -4
As for the 45 degree cut steel beam with slag Look at this: and this close up: Got anymore extraneous BS?
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Post by scooter on Jun 29, 2006 10:33:26 GMT -4
Invariably, the use of thermite in the CD theory is linked with the alleged "pools" of molten steel seen deep in the debris pile, as well as the yello hot steel/material being pulled from the debris. I saw this up over at BAUT and the consensus was:
Thermite/thermate is not used in CD applications. It would heat and melt enough metal to cut through, but then on burning out, the material would cool. It would not create molten pools of steel that stayed molten, just some slag in the immediate vicinity of the burn
I have never seen evidence of molten pools of steel. I have seen pics of the yellow hot mass being hauled out of the pile. I imagine, insulated under all the debris, with underground fires burning, things could get hot and stay hot a long time. The pools I believe are based on eyewitness accounts, the same types of accounts which are easily dismissed by CTs when required.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jun 29, 2006 11:01:12 GMT -4
In summary, we have the following evidence of Thermate causing or at least assisting the WTC towers collapses: - Video of white smoke rising up from the bottom just before the collapse started., Smoke from a building on fire is suspicious? please provide a link to the video The aluminium could have been mixed with other materials which would change its color Fires in the debris pile burned hotenough to heat steel to this temp If you mean like on the cut beam above that was from cutting torches. If you are refering to something else provide a citation see post above see post above evidence please, the steel cut in Jones demos didn't have anywhere near the dimentions of the WTC columns
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Jun 29, 2006 11:08:17 GMT -4
Why aren't you equally skeptical of the 911 Commission findings, because they're "official" and "unbiased" and no possible conflicts of interest? Jones findings were peer-reviewed. According to the Daily Universe story they have not been peer-reviewed.
Why am I not skeptical of the 911 Commission findings? Because they don't make the extraordinary claim that a government would kill thousands of its own citizens and cause immense economic damage in order to begin a profitless war, be so inept at it that random yahoos on the internet can find evidence that it was faked, and yet at the same time be so capable that they can pack an occupied office building full of thermite with none of the occupants noticing, and yet again be so inept that they blurt out that it was a controlled demolition on public television. The very idea that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the US government is ridiculous from top to bottom, and that's why I'm skeptical of it.
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lenbrazil
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Post by lenbrazil on Jun 29, 2006 11:09:48 GMT -4
I have never seen evidence of molten pools of steel. [...] The pools I believe are based on eyewitness accounts, the same types of accounts which are easily dismissed by CTs when required. Most of these accounts were second or third hand, many refered to molten metal. There are IIRC 1 or 2 first hand acounts of molten STEEL in these cases one must wonder how the observer determined it was steel and not some other metal. As I pointed out on another thread there are several types of metal whose metling points are below temps that could have been reached by the debris pile fires. I have challenge for the CTs, how many 1st hand accounts of molten steel can you find made by people would know the difference between steel and aluminium, babbit, lead etc when molten?
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Post by echnaton on Jun 29, 2006 11:21:45 GMT -4
Good work on finding those photos, Len.
I still can’t get over how peculiar this thermite, thermate claim is. Thermite is not an explosive. It leaves behind a significant amount of iron when it burns. One of its purposes is welding. Adding sulfur may make it burn hotter but the sulfur in the air would make an unmistakable stink of rotten eggs at the quantities that that the HBs claim was used. The only rotten eggs I’ve smelled in this discussion are the ideas put forward by the HBs.
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Post by sts60 on Jun 29, 2006 16:21:37 GMT -4
The ease with which CTs gloss over their own contradictions is always pretty amusing.
Demolition charges (using thermite/thermate, which nobody uses to "shoot" a building, but never mind that) are set off at the bottom of the building. But the building doesn't collapse from the bottom. But never mind! Charges were set off on the bottom!
Thermite/thermate charges (which were magically placed in quantities huge enough to bring the building down without the kind of preparation all controlled demolition requires, but never mind that) go off, the thermite is consumed and somehow brings the building down. Days later, it still is very hot at the bottom of the rubble pile. Of course it must be thermite at the bottom! Never mind that it was consumed in the demolition! They probably just got lazy and stacked all their pallets of unused thermite in the parking garage!
Pretty amusing. But pretty sad too.
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