|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 13:57:15 GMT -4
On past performance, it's highly dubious you even captured one of the right bad guys: so when you torture him, you perforce get duff information and your family is killed anyway. Way to go So its better to do nothing and try and explain THAT to your dead daughters mother? As I said I'll error on the side of caution.
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 13:58:42 GMT -4
My principals say protecting myself, my family and my countrymen comes first. How are you protecting anyone when you rely on a "technique" (torture) which doesn't provide reliable infomation.Its a FAR better choice than "protecting" the bad guy. How are you protecting ANYONE but the bad guy?
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 14:08:59 GMT -4
You failed to answer my question.
Torture DOES NOT guarantee reliable information...why use a technique that doesn't work??
...or are you just out for revenge?
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 14:24:34 GMT -4
You failed to answer my question. Torture DOES NOT guarantee reliable information...why use a technique that doesn't work?? ...or are you just out for revenge? I did answer your question, you just don't like the answer.
|
|
Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
Posts: 1,453
|
Post by Al Johnston on Jan 25, 2009 14:29:02 GMT -4
So its better to do nothing and try and explain THAT to your dead daughters mother? As I said I'll error on the side of caution. No, it's better to engage in more intelligent (if somewhat more difficult, expensive and time-consuming) methods of intelligence gathering and crime prevention. You'll definitely err...
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 14:34:15 GMT -4
So its better to do nothing and try and explain THAT to your dead daughters mother? As I said I'll error on the side of caution. No, it's better to engage in more intelligent (if somewhat more difficult, expensive and time-consuming) methods of intelligence gathering and crime prevention. You'll definitely err... Is it? IMO thats what got us 9/11. But just for the record, is it your position that you would rather coddle a terrorist and lose a loved one...standing on some "principal", rather than at least TRY and get information, in a manner that might seem unsavory?
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 14:35:20 GMT -4
I did answer your question, you just don't like the answer. Sorry, but you DID NOT. So I will repeat it once again...how do you protect anyone relying on a technique that does not provide reliable information?
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 14:39:10 GMT -4
Al's got you "pegged" so in response you attempt to misrepresent what he has said?
Come on, Craig...do you really expect anyone here to take that seriously??
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 15:17:32 GMT -4
I did answer your question, you just don't like the answer. Sorry, but you DID NOT. So I will repeat it once again...how do you protect anyone relying on a technique that does not provide reliable information? And I'll answer it once again, you still won't like the answer. Its a FAR better choice than "protecting" the bad guy. You make a statement that you can't back up. Can you prove that waterboardiing has NEVER provided reliable information? I don't know the answer, but again I'll error on the side of my family and my country rather than on the side of a terrorist.
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 15:21:46 GMT -4
Al's got you "pegged" so in response you attempt to misrepresent what he has said? Come on, Craig...do you really expect anyone here to take that seriously?? Al has an opinion, as do I. I asked him to refine his in relation to the scenario presented. You can take or leave my opinion, I really don't care. I sure don't place much value in yours, on this issue. Al can answer the question or not, it's his choice.
|
|
|
Post by Ginnie on Jan 25, 2009 15:38:48 GMT -4
Sorry, but you DID NOT. So I will repeat it once again...how do you protect anyone relying on a technique that does not provide reliable information? And I'll answer it once again, you still won't like the answer. Its a FAR better choice than "protecting" the bad guy. You make a statement that you can't back up. Can you prove that waterboardiing has NEVER provided reliable information? I don't know the answer, but again I'll error on the side of my family and my country rather than on the side of a terrorist. Craig, how far would you go? Are we just talking about waterboarding here, or would you resort to more extreme methods of interrogation? The Romans had some quite nasty methods of torture, as did the Church in the Middle ages. Would you use those methods as a last resort to get information? Also, if we don't "torture" suspected terrorists, does that necessarily mean that we are coddling or protecting them?
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 15:49:18 GMT -4
And I'll answer it once again, you still won't like the answer. Its a FAR better choice than "protecting" the bad guy. You make a statement that you can't back up. Can you prove that waterboardiing has NEVER provided reliable information? I don't know the answer, but again I'll error on the side of my family and my country rather than on the side of a terrorist. Craig, how far would you go? Are we just talking about waterboarding here, or would you resort to more extreme methods of interrogation? The Romans had some quite nasty methods of torture, as did the Church in the Middle ages. Would you use those methods as a last resort to get information? Also, if we don't "torture" suspected terrorists, does that necessarily mean that we are coddling or protecting them? How far? Good question and I would be willing to accept even more extreme measures depending on the situation. If you decide to take tools from the toolbox, IMO yes you are putting the terrorist above family and country.
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 16:07:19 GMT -4
Sorry, but you DID NOT. So I will repeat it once again...how do you protect anyone relying on a technique that does not provide reliable information? And I'll answer it once again... Well, no, you still haven't, but I'm beginning see the method to your "madness". So we either torture the terrorists, or we are "protecting them". Waterboarding IS torture. Torture doesn't work, therefore waterboarding doesn't work. Just take a second and think about it. You are being tortured. You are made to believe that you could possibly DIE. Won't you tell your interrogator ANYTHING to stop that torture. Actually, lets take it a step further... Won't you tell your interrogator exactly what you think he wants to hear even incorrect information to stop that torture???
|
|
|
Post by RAF on Jan 25, 2009 16:23:59 GMT -4
Ok...how about this for an example...
You are being tortured for information, your interrogator asks for the location of "joe".
Now it just so happens that you have no idea where "joe" is and you tell him that...
But no, he says that he knows that you know the location of "joe" and you will continue to be tortured until you reveal that location.
Do ya see what I'm getting at here??
|
|
|
Post by craiglamson on Jan 25, 2009 16:31:14 GMT -4
And I'll answer it once again... Well, no, you still haven't, but I'm beginning see the method to your "madness". So we either torture the terrorists, or we are "protecting them". Waterboarding IS torture. Torture doesn't work, therefore waterboarding doesn't work. Just take a second and think about it. You are being tortured. You are made to believe that you could possibly DIE. Won't you tell your interrogator ANYTHING to stop that torture. Actually, lets take it a step further... Won't you tell your interrogator exactly what you think he wants to hear even incorrect information to stop that torture??? You just don't like the answer because it paints you in a bad light. Thats not my problem, its yours. That waterboarding is torture, is YOUR opinion , not fact, and really its besides the point. Its a tool and you are willing to throw it away to coddle a terrorists "rights" in deference to your family and country. Clearly thats your choice. So be it. At least have the guts to be honest about what your choice entails. I'm sure many tell their captors what they want to hear, and I would not be suprised that some actually tell the truth. You are willing to throw it ALL away, to protect a terrorist over your family and country in some, IMO, a misguided sense of "principal". How will you communicate that to your daughter in respect to her dead mother?
|
|