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Post by LunarOrbit on Aug 9, 2007 14:54:40 GMT -4
It seems like you're saying agnostics would be religious (or in other words, they would agree with you) if they only gave it more thought, and it's kind of insulting. It would be like me saying fewer religious people would believe in God if they just gave it more thought instead of letting their church tell them what to believe.
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Post by gwiz on Aug 9, 2007 15:00:03 GMT -4
Welcome.
I'm one of the atheists. I was raised a Christian, but put some thought into the matter in my late teens and decided there was no point in believing in something for which there was zero evidence. However, I'm not a Dawkins-style militant and am quite happy to let other people go their own ways. The exception to this is when religion tries to suppress science, as in creationism/intelligent design, which I see as having a lot in common with the conspiracy theories in not letting the evidence upset a belief.
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Bob B.
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Post by Bob B. on Aug 9, 2007 15:03:40 GMT -4
I'm not a Dawkins-style militant and am quite happy to let other people go their own ways. The exception to this is when religion tries to suppress science, as in creationism/intelligent design, which I see as having a lot in common with the conspiracy theories in not letting the evidence upset a belief. Same here.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 9, 2007 16:29:28 GMT -4
It seems like you're saying agnostics would be religious (or in other words, they would agree with you) if they only gave it more thought, and it's kind of insulting. It would be like me saying fewer religious people would believe in God if they just gave it more thought instead of letting their church tell them what to believe. That's not my intent. I simply meant that many agnostics I've met do not appear overly concerned as to whether there is a God or not - by saying "they haven't given much thought to it" I mean it in the most literal sense. I do believe that people would agree with me if they did the same things I did to acheive my own belief in God, but I wouldn't really blame them if they've never seriously concerned themselves with the issue in the first place.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 9, 2007 16:34:23 GMT -4
The exception to this is when religion tries to suppress science, as in creationism/intelligent design, which I see as having a lot in common with the conspiracy theories in not letting the evidence upset a belief. Probably a subject for a different thread, but do you see any problem in covering the points of intelligent design during a course teaching evolution? Or learning what creationism is while discussing planet formation and such? I would agree that neither one is really a scientific theory and shouldn't be taught as such, but does that mean you shouldn't become familiar with other points of view?
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Post by gwiz on Aug 9, 2007 17:21:11 GMT -4
Probably a subject for a different thread, but do you see any problem in covering the points of intelligent design during a course teaching evolution? Or learning what creationism is while discussing planet formation and such? I would agree that neither one is really a scientific theory and shouldn't be taught as such, but does that mean you shouldn't become familiar with other points of view? Not in courses on evolution or astronomy, any more than I'd want yogic flying in aerodynamics or clairvoyance in optics. They are not science and should be taught elsewhere.
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 9, 2007 19:17:46 GMT -4
I hate being referred to as a 'fence sitter', but I guess that's where I'm at. I have a small library of books on religion and philosophy, and still cannot commit to a definite doctrine. With thousands of them out there, what are the chances that I'd pick the right one - although any one of them probably would be okay to live by. The older I get, the more absurd the concept of a god becomes to me - and not really voluntarily all the time. So I guess I'm an agnostic. Maybe a lot of us here are also agnostics is because we require 'proof' of a Supreme Being, and it don't look like that's gonna happen...
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Post by VALIS on Aug 9, 2007 19:54:06 GMT -4
Does agnostic mean that you request proof of the existence of God? I would think that it would make you atheist instead.
I mean, I don't believe God exist, but I don't believe Thor, Ra, unicorns or Superman exist either. With adequate proof I would recognize the existence of any of those, but then it wouldn't be belief anymore.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 10, 2007 3:33:52 GMT -4
G’day knight, and welcome to Apollohoax.
I’m not a religious person. On the last census form I marked “No Religion”. As for being atheist or agnostic, I sit somewhere between the two. I don’t think God exists, because I haven’t seen convincing evidence for it. If He does exist, then I think it’s unlikely He’d have the ability to affect things in our universe. Finally, if He does exist, I don’t see that as requiring worship in the way religions prescribe. Anyway, this assumes the Christian God exists – I see no more evidence for it than for the existence of, say, Zeus.
I particularly dislike the claim made by some religious people that not being religious is, in itself, a religious decision. As someone once said, not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby.
Likewise, I dislike the claim by some that all religions are worshipping the same God in different ways. To me, that’s a cop-out by religious people who want their religion, but don’t have the intellectual courage to accept the fact that various religions around the world have very different doctrines, doctrines which many are prepared to kill to defend.
For example, into this category I’d put Islamic apologists who say Islam is a religion of peace, and that Islamic suicide bombers are misrepresenting Islam. The problem is that virtually any position can be justified by reference to virtually any religion. People have their opinions and their religion, and most people do what they can to make the two match, regardless of how hard they have to twist their religion to fit. In my experience there are few people who change their religion to match their opinions, and fewer who change their opinions to match their religion.
For those who claim the wonderful legacies of religion, I don’t doubt it. Many churches, mosques and temples are beautiful buildings. Both Orthodox and Catholic Christianity has been responsible for some beautiful art. English religious music is wonderful to listen to. But religion has also brought many disasters on the world, both in commission and omission. There are many Christians whose behaviour has been conspicuously at odds with the claimed message of Jesus, and many more who’ve tried to defend their indefensible colleagues.
I find it startling and gratifying that four books have emerged in the last 12 months prominently supporting and promoting atheism – Sam Harris’s “Letter to a Christian Nation”, Richard Dawkins’s “The God Delusion”, Michel Onfray’s “Atheist Manifesto” and Christopher Hitchins’s “God is not Great”.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 10, 2007 10:54:07 GMT -4
I would say that some people definitely make atheism their religion. There is a difference between simply chosing not to collect stamps yourself and writing books calling people who collect stamps unsophisticated fools, loudly proclaiming that the world will be a better place when the outmoded hobby of stamp collecting finally dies out, and theorizing that those who still desire to collect stamps are mentally ill.
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 10, 2007 13:18:30 GMT -4
Also, Peter, I think you are merely touching the very tip of the iceberg of religion's contributions to our current society, especially the Judeo-Christian religious tradition. The buildings and music are only the most obvious legacy. In fact, religion is so deeply imbeded in the history of western civilization that it is nearly all-pervasive. There really is no way to draw a line and say "religion didn't contribute to this in any way."
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Al Johnston
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Post by Al Johnston on Aug 10, 2007 13:27:35 GMT -4
But then some stamp collectors send whole generations out to knock on doors and inveigle non-collectors into the hobby, or persuade them to collect another variety of stamp. Bookshops and libraries at least leave non-readers in peace. ;D
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Jason
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Post by Jason on Aug 10, 2007 13:33:40 GMT -4
Well, if they start forcing you to collect their particular variety of stamp, or burning those who refuse to collect stamps at the stake then they are certainly going too far. But just knocking on a door to say "hi, have you ever considered stamp collecting?" doesn't seem much of a problem to me.
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Al Johnston
"Cheer up!" they said, "It could be worse!" So I did, and it was.
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Post by Al Johnston on Aug 10, 2007 14:03:27 GMT -4
Depends what I was doing when they interrupted...
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 10, 2007 16:29:29 GMT -4
I do believe that people would agree with me if they did the same things I did to acheive my own belief in God, but I wouldn't really blame them if they've never seriously concerned themselves with the issue in the first place. Jason, like Lunar Orbit, I too have the sense that you think that agnostics and athiests don't put much effort into their own personal spiritual quest. What did you mean by 'did the same things I did to achieve my own belief in God'? It suggests to me that you assuming that agnostics and athiests haven't done anything while you have. ??
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