Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 10, 2007 17:55:05 GMT -4
Look at it this way. If I could play the guitar and I said "I think anyone who put the same effort I did into learning how to play the guitar could also learn how to play," would you think I was insulting those people who weren't interested in learning how to play the guitar in the first place?
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 10, 2007 20:02:51 GMT -4
Its not the same thing. My point is: Just because somebody is an atheist or an agnostic doesn't mean that they are not on a spiritual quest. It may mean that the quest has made them an atheist or an agnostic, at least at this moment in time . And they may still be searching. Like me.
Hey, maybe I'll have an epiphany or some divine awakening within someday. Who knows?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 10, 2007 23:29:11 GMT -4
No it's not the same thing, but that's basically how I meant what I said.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 13, 2007 1:55:29 GMT -4
I would say that some people definitely make atheism their religion. I agree. But that's not the case with me. I take your point, but that's not the point I was making. I was talking specifically about people who make an absurd logical connection - that not bothering to follow any religion is itself the selection of a religion.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 13, 2007 2:23:17 GMT -4
Look at it this way. If I could play the guitar and I said "I think anyone who put the same effort I did into learning how to play the guitar could also learn how to play," would you think I was insulting those people who weren't interested in learning how to play the guitar in the first place? One of my problems with religion is, to use your analogy, people play all sorts of guitars - six string acoustic, electric, bass. Many of them are convinced their particular guitar is The One True Instrument, and some will even say that if you don't play the same guitar they play, you're going to guitar hell (welcome, here's your piano-accordion). Sometimes this can get to the extent of violence against people playing other types of guitars. My second problem is that there are some people who say that all guitars are really the same - after all, they're all guitars - and try to make it seem that the disputes over guitars aren't really that important, despite the violence which some perpetrate. My third problem is that there are other people out there who shake their heads knowingly at all you guitar players, because they know the One True Instrument is the violin. Disputes between guitar players make as much sense to violinists as an argument between two 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists over whether thermate or thermite was used to demolish the WTC towers makes to skeptics. My fourth problem is that most people play the same instrument their parents played. It's easy to believe that the main influence on which instrument people play is not whether the instrument selected is the One True Instrument, but the instrument the child heard played most in childhood.
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Post by Obviousman on Aug 13, 2007 6:25:19 GMT -4
I'm an atheist.
Some of the people on this board hold my utmost respect. Many of those very same people are devoutly religious in some form.
I think we prefer to concentrate on what we have in common rather than on our differences of opinion.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 13, 2007 11:28:39 GMT -4
So Peter, is your problem really with "religion" or is it with the people who behave in this way? If they didn't have the excuse of religion, do you really think they would behave differently, or would they just find some other reason to hate each other? I know where my money is on this one.
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furi
Mars
The Secret is to keep banging those rocks together.
Posts: 260
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Post by furi on Aug 13, 2007 12:36:41 GMT -4
*steps out from behind a passing neutrino*
Hi Knight,
Welcome sit down and pull up a kitten.
I would describe myself as a fundamental Atheist, i am as tolerant of other peoples religions, as their respective religions are of Atheists (Welcome to the most hated singular Faith (hmm) Group on the planet).
now it is time for me to go to the pub, and sample some fine ale (and probably one or 2 that will give me the windypops)
*holds thumb out and hitches a lift on another lepton*
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Post by Ginnie on Aug 13, 2007 21:19:29 GMT -4
Now my interest has been piqued. Just curious, what fine ale are you talking about? Maybe I can try it over here if the liquor store stocks it.
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Post by PeterB on Aug 14, 2007 3:03:23 GMT -4
So Peter, is your problem really with "religion" or is it with the people who behave in this way? If they didn't have the excuse of religion, do you really think they would behave differently, or would they just find some other reason to hate each other? I know where my money is on this one. Once again, Grasshopper, you speak sense. :-) The problem with many religions is the people associated with it: ministers who live the good life off the tithes of their parishoners; Catholic priests who molest young boys and those in the hierarchy who protect them; so-called healers like Benny Hinn who do their utmost to keep seriously ill people away from themselves, because deep down they know they can't really heal people; the leaders of groups which send out their rank and file as suicide bombers; those who promote hatred of those not in their group; those who defend the sorts of people I've just listed. But as I said in my first post in this thread, I also have a problem with religion itself. It goes like this: I don't think God exists, any more than I think Zeus exists (I dare say, Jason, you don't think Zeus exists either, though I don't want to put words in your mouth); if God does exist, I assume he exists outside our universe, and has no ability to affect anything within the universe; and even if he does exist, I don't see the need to worship him, or build any theology around him. Following on from that, in my guitar post above, I also commented on the fact that there are many religions which claim to be the One True Faith. Even if the follower of every religion was a pacifist, there are inconsistencies between religions. These inconsistencies are such that someone making the wrong choice appears to be condemned to hell. Can I marry one woman only, or many? Can I eat pork? Can I drink alcohol? I've read an article suggesting that the more severe a religion's restrictions, the more cohesive that community, citing the very tight restrictions applying to Jains. That may be true, but how does relate to God? Does God want us to live such restricted lives? If so, why are so many devout people convinced lesser restrictions are God's intentions? Is God trying to confuse us? To me, a better explanation is that these restrictions are based on people's guesses as to what they think God's will is. Sadly, according to many religions, simply living a good, moral life isn't sufficient. But because I'm an honest atheist, any profession of faith I make is going to be disingenuous, so I'm destined for the Lake of Fire by that path too. No matter what I do, I'm destined for eternal punishment. :-o And that's another problem I have. Supposedly it's possible for people to experience an eternity of punishment for a finite amount of sin, whether religious or not. That seems a bit unfair...
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Aug 14, 2007 12:00:02 GMT -4
The problem with many religions is the people associated with it: ministers who live the good life off the tithes of their parishoners; Catholic priests who molest young boys and those in the hierarchy who protect them; so-called healers like Benny Hinn who do their utmost to keep seriously ill people away from themselves, because deep down they know they can't really heal people; the leaders of groups which send out their rank and file as suicide bombers; those who promote hatred of those not in their group; those who defend the sorts of people I've just listed. I absolutely agree. Most of the time the problem with a religion is that the people in it don't practice what they preach. True, I would say that Zeus never existed outside of the imagination of his followers. However even then I cannot say it absolutely. There may have been real people that the myths of Zeus are based on, for instance, in which case Zeus can be said to have existed, after a fashion. Well, if God existed completely outside the universe and had no ability to affect anything in it I would agree that there would be little point in worshipping such a being. However, I don't see any way to prove your assumption except by disproving it - by showing evidence of God affecting things in the universe. I would say that generally no, God doesn't want us to live in a monastery or otherwise cut ourselves completely off from the world. I agree with you that often a religion's restrictions are guesses. However, some are more obviously beneficial than others. They may not be God's will precisely, but they can still serve to improve a person's life, and probably several were viewed as God's will precisely because they were so obviously beneficial in practice. I agree - that does seem unfair. It's even more unfair if you consider that most religions in any form have only been accepted by a small minority of the world's total population over time. For example, if Christianity is the correct faith then your typical peasant who lived in China from 500-530 AD is completely out of luck just because of when and where he was born. And there are billions who have lived who are in the same state. Which of course is one of the reasons I am a member of the faith I am.
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