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Post by JayUtah on Mar 13, 2008 10:31:48 GMT -4
I'm still trying to say it three times fast.
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Post by RAF on Mar 13, 2008 11:38:59 GMT -4
Why is it so hard for you to understand that the "saucer shape" is simply not a viable alternative to the traditional aircraft wing?It should be noted that the books in question are more a discussion of alleged anti-gravity technology than the supposed aerodynamic merits or pitfalls of a saucer-shaped airfoil. Noted...thanks. I have a problem with conventional scientific understanding and it's methodology. It's not enough to say "I disagree". You must be able to provide convincing evidence as to why you disagree. ...and from what I've read, you haven't even attempted to do that.
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 13, 2008 12:52:30 GMT -4
Altair4 has provided some reasons: the scientific method doesn't answer certain kinds of questions, and it doesn't guarantee success. Of course the same can be said for pseudoscience; but more importantly, the scientific method doesn't attempt to answer questions it's not suited for, and I don't know of anything in any context that guarantees success. The scientific method is not a perfect method; it's just the best method for the questions to which it is meant to apply. Pseudoscience, on the other hand, offers absolutely no assurance of success because it offers practically nothing tangible that would have the potential to succeed or fail. It offers only glittering promises, and disdain for regular science.
Altair4 also implies that mainstream science is limited to a very narrow vision. Hence all the great and wonderful things out there that we could be doing are effectually closed to mainstream science and its "limited" point of view. Mainstream science indeed has a restricted view of the universe, and necessarily so. The restriction doesn't come from a lack of imagination or a lack of interest, but from a lack of data or ability to observe reliably. And that's because mainstream science is actually useful for things. Pseudoscience aims at lofty concepts, but fails to produce anything that's useful or that expands our understanding of how the universe works.
So I have to laugh when hucksters say their ideas transcend the boundaries of known physics; they say that as if it were a good thing. In fact their ideas never make it off paper, or rise to any level that lets people determine whether there's any substance to them. Imagination is great. But don't confuse it with people who actually do things.
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Post by altair4 on Mar 13, 2008 16:47:06 GMT -4
GOOD JAY!!GOOD
yes there is a level that is observable(science).... and a level that is not(But things still happen,mysteriously that scientist do NOT have the answers so that cannot be science ( AND I WOULD NOT CALL IT PSEUDOSCIENCE...just because something cannot measured by science doesn't mean to say its false
Also didn't chemistry arise from alchemy
Anyway,books such as Stevens,Nick Cook and another book Reich of the Black Sun ,I find interesting as well: I will continue with.
Flying saucers(whatever the technology have been PHOTOGRAPHED in New Zealand) and thats good enough for me!And besides Nick Cook may not be a scientist but he has provided good information that correlates with other sources...that are good enough for me!
Like I say Flying Saucers (Disc shape have been PHOTOGRAPHED over New Zealand...thats the BOTTEM LINE!(4 me) and thats most important to me,and OBSERVED by REAL people I have lived in New Zealand all my life...and you HAVEN'T!!
the flying saucers are interesting and exotic
I will continue my invetistigations!!!
care good luck with Mythbusters
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 13, 2008 17:25:43 GMT -4
...just because something cannot measured by science doesn't mean to say its false
Just because there are some categories that elude scientific inquiry doesn't mean your topics of interest must fall into them.
Pseudoscientists beg the question that their claims must necessarily lie where science can't reach it. Pseudoscientists habitually argue that science must know everything in order to justify rejecting anything. That's hogwash. You're just handwaving.
Also didn't chemistry arise from alchemy
No. Interest in chemistry arose from interest in alchemy. Chemistry succeeded because it is built upon scientific principles. Alchemy failed because it was not. They had similar goals, but very different methods.
Anyway,books such as Stevens,Nick Cook and another book Reich of the Black Sun ,I find interesting as well:...
That's fine. You may spend your time as you see fit. However kindly refrain from calling people closed-minded who do not wish to waste their own time with demonstrable nonsense.
Flying saucers(whatever the technology have been PHOTOGRAPHED in New Zealand)...
No, photographs have been taken that are attributed to flying saucers. Your reasoning is circular. If "flying saucers had been photographed," then it would be known that the subjects were flying saucers before the photographs were taken.
If I take a picture of my cat, it's a picture of my cat. I know my cat and what it is before the photo is taken. If I take a photo of "something," I may eventually conclude it's of a cat. But the proof of that identification is not the photo itself. The photo would be what I'm trying to explain. That's the essence of the circularity.
...and thats good enough for me!
The kernel of this debate is what is good enough. Clearly your standards are very, very low. Unfortunately mine aren't; and I've explained already why low standards in scientific inquiry are undesirable. You're simply begging us to lower our standards to agree that you're reasonable. Open-mindedness does not mean relaxing the standards of proof until predisposed beliefs seem acceptable.
And besides Nick Cook may not be a scientist but he has provided good information...
What do you mean by "good?" If you mean information of value to practicing physicists, then I disagree; and I submit that neither you nor Cook is qualified to determine the quality of those ideas for that purpose.
...that correlates with other sources
Consistent sets of rumors are still rumors. The question is not whether Cook can find seemingly correlated sets of claims, but whether what is claimed is actually real and actually happened.
...I have lived in New Zealand all my life...and you HAVEN'T!!
Did you see the alleged flying saucers yourself? If you didn't, then it doesn't matter that you live in a place where others claim to have seen and photographed them.
the flying saucers are interesting and exotic
So is Stargate Atlantis. That doesn't mean it's real.
I will continue my invetistigations!!!
I haven't seen any sign that you're doing any investigation. It looks to me like you're simply reading and believing. Everything you hear is "good enough for you."
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Mar 13, 2008 17:45:54 GMT -4
Like I say Flying Saucers (Disc shape have been PHOTOGRAPHED over New Zealand...thats the BOTTEM LINE!(4 me) and thats most important to me,and OBSERVED by REAL people I have lived in New Zealand all my life...and you HAVEN'T!! How is living in New Zealand your whole life relevant? Are you claiming that flying saucers are only ever seen over New Zealand?
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Post by altair4 on Mar 13, 2008 19:51:19 GMT -4
Your right in some ways ,but really your standards are low about 10...where 1 is the highest!The flying saucers correlate here and there in similarity around the world and is well documented by researchers
interesting comment" I can assure that flying saucers,given that they exist, are not made by any power on Earth." TRUMAN ( or are they??)
These comments were taken before the photos I have in the book "UFOs over New Zealand
OBTW
Stargate Atlantis.Stargate's the US Army remote viewing programme for Remote Viewing(ERV is a keyword on an Echelon Keyword list,so is Fort Meade...which I have)and also knowledge of the distant,hidden and future are in the Yoga sutras(Patanjali)...good book."The Science of Yoga". I will say it again The SCIENCE of yoga. the kind of science that your hero James Randi doesn't seem to know much about!(hes pathetic) and so is Dawkins
Atlantis I would say is where the Azores are now (Freemason book written in 1960's,which I have) it also talks about earthquakes and hurricanes at given latitudes in the future, its happening now and talks about a future "government" too.
Stargate Atlantis is a good progarm
Once again I find your logic a joke really, you have demonstratable nonsense, its called IGNORANCE and DELUSION ,you see everything in black and white ,and experience is grey!
You have nothing more than a weak logic like,I say the level which you are at is low about 10!.I am above that you don't see the BIG PICTURE! I will carrying on with the Flying Saucers...NicK Cook,Stevens
So whats it like debunking things,I take pleasure in knowing from experience!
No photographs of flying saucers?!Explain something in the book "UFOs over New Zealand" of round disc objects showing similar characteristics in other locations
And like I say my experience is more important than your lack of it!!
somehow these objects create their own gravitational field
and the DVD about german flying saucers why have people (German) come forward about such programs they were there in that time period and you weren't!!
I find you have shallow logic about....EVERYTHING! Perhaps its not wise for you to study Zen.,you probably won't be able to prove if you exist!and that your whole life is just a dream!
anyway I need to have another coffee!I take it there are Mormans in your neck of the woods that don't drink coffee!!
all you can do is come up a reason for NOT pursueing flying saucer sightings in the 1950's and I can think of GOOD reasons for pursueing this sort of thing..they have been sighted,photographed,confirmed..and thats all I need to know!
OBTW
I have a book called "UFO exist and in this book is a quote by Donald Menzel saying " I have seen a flying saucer" Yes I thought you recognise that name! MJ12.
Like I say MJ12 and Majic are keywords on an Echelon Keyword list
so you can stick to your nonsense and delusion and I will carry on with my investigations!
Paul
have a nice day!! and yes I am willing to lend it to you,provided I get it in return book "UFO exist"
I TRUST YOU!
if you were more positive it would help
OBTW I have studied science and at school my school reports were A's, and univerrsity was interesting to but I wisened up a bit, Psychology is a pseudoscience..it isn't real it's inexact about human nature .You can stick to your theories..but in the real world experience is what really counts
I will carry on with Cook,Stevens,Et Al ...history
and you can keep on wondering???
OBTW '"waste of time" you say! thats how +ve YOU ARE!., and I have learnt a few things...more than what you will ever know!!
like I say your level is about 10, I am above that.
go and read a book on Personality and see if you figure yours,because I can't and no one else can either except YOU!!does it gratify your EGO to think that your lack of experience is superior to someone else.? Like I say your level is simplistic. DO you see everything in absolutes!
Go and watch a dvd about Sasquatch or something and debunk that as well. Me,Sasquatch is possible(?)
Go and read a book called THE SECRET ZODIACS OF WASHINGTON DC, my Freemason friend didn't argue with it we have some interesting discussion he has worked in a bank and so have I ...I take you haven't?So I will stick to my experience and you dwell on your lack of it!
why don't you go ask Aldrin what it was like to walk on the moon..I'm sure he will give you a straight answer..or you can ask Sibrel?who would you rather believe?
I believe Aldrin anyday!
have a nice day PEACE!PEACE!
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 13, 2008 20:28:49 GMT -4
but really your standards are low about 10...where 1 is the highest!
Hogwash. I'm the one asking for accountability, and you treat everything with "good enough for me." If it's good enough for you but not for me, then my standards are obviously more stringent than yours.
Several times in this post you say I have no expertise or experience and that you do. It's clear you're groping for some sort of ego boost which I will not help to provide. If you want to be considered a rigorous thinker, then demonstrate rigorous thought. Until then, demanding that you are is just silly.
...correlate here and there in similarity around the world and is well documented by researchers...
UFO enthusiasts are not researchers; they're advocates. Nor does their documentation have scientific value since it's all anecdotal and none of it is peer-reviewed. Similarity is explained by such things as copycatting and shared cultural archetypes as well, which your "researchers" do not consider, or which they simply dismiss. There is no need to explain that by some extraterrestrial means. You can't see fit to separate observation from predisposed interpretation.
Once again I find your logic a joke really...
You complain about it, but you can't seem argue with it other than to call it names. Sour grapes.
...you don't see the BIG PICTURE!
What assures you that the "big picture" is where the answers are found? Truthfulness does not lie in the big picture, but in the verifiable details. Pseudoscience avoids details and sticks to the "big picture" because vague generalities can't be tested, and they provide the widest latitude for shifting the goalposts when criticism becomes unbearable.
Explain something in the book "UFOs over New Zealand" of round disc objects showing similar characteristics in other locations
Why does similarity make them flying saucers?
somehow these objects create their own gravitational field
Pure supposition, hence the "somehow."
...they were there in that time period and you weren't!!
Neither were you. In fact, no one can verify that those people actually saw the things they claim. Attention-seeking is a very powerful motive -- the most powerful, according to some authors -- one that real investigators must deal with. People who come forward with fantastic unverifiable stories just to get into DVDs are not reliable witnesses.
and I can think of GOOD reasons for pursueing this sort of thing..they have been sighted,photographed,confirmed..and thats all I need to know!
Hogwash. Pictures have been taken whose contents are persistently attributed to flying saucers, with no evidence that this is what they really are, by people who desperately want to believe in flying saucers. As I pointed out, that's circular logic.
Yes I thought you recognise that name! MJ12.
MJ12 was a hoax.
Like I say MJ12 and Majic are keywords on an Echelon Keyword list
I asked you to provide the list and substantiate its provenance. If you're going to keep bringing it up in conversation then do what I asked.
if you were more positive it would help
Help what? This is not a forum where every oddball belief is reinforced with warm fuzzies. This is a forum where ideas are tested for strength. If you don't want your claims challenged, then go elsewhere. I recommend Godlike Productions.
No one is here going to tolerate slipshod reasoning and vague handwaving just to be more "positive."
I have studied science and at school my school reports were A's, and univerrsity was interesting to but I wisened up a bit...
Did you obtain a degree at university, and if so what?
Psychology is a pseudoscience...
Irrelevant. Physics is not, and that's what we're talking about.
DO you see everything in absolutes!
No, I just don't believe in unsubstantiated nonsense professing to be fact.
he has worked in a bank and so have I ...I take you haven't?
I'm sitting in a bank right now (Optum Health Financial Services, formerly Exante Bank) inspecting software for the client who is paying me a very large sum of money for my critical thinking and expertise.
But why does whether I have banking experience matter in the least? Why are you scrambling to find anything -- no matter how irrelevant -- that portrays as inferior any who disagree with you or question your beliefs? Are you really that insecure?
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Post by Ginnie on Mar 13, 2008 20:30:57 GMT -4
Altair4, for someone who is so "+ve", you can also insult pretty good. I'm very disappointed in you - instead of responded to Jay with careful, detailed remarks and explanations , you have resorted to insults, vagueness and an air of superiority.
Maybe you should join a SupernaturalPsychicPhenomena forum instead? It's one thing to believe alternative theories but it's quite another to attack the intellect and experience of someone you hardly know. Can you be more specific in how you are 'above that' without just quoting fringe authors and books? Even if what you believe is not widely (or at all) accepted by modern science, there must be natural explanations for them - all of life's possibilities and happenings must conform to some natural law after all, don't you think? Please explain instead of spouting.
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Post by Ginnie on Mar 13, 2008 20:38:26 GMT -4
Pseudoscience avoids details and sticks to the "big picture" because vague generalities can't be tested, and they provide the widest latitude for shifting the goalposts when criticism becomes unbearable.
Ain't that the truth! Remember Chariots of the Gods?
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Post by scooter on Mar 13, 2008 21:03:11 GMT -4
altair4, I worked in Cheyenne Mountain for 6 years. You have no idea what goes on in there...neither do the Stargate producers. (but I too enjoy the show).
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Post by LunarOrbit on Mar 13, 2008 21:05:40 GMT -4
Also didn't chemistry arise from alchemy
There is a reason why people don't practice alchemy anymore: it doesn't work. You can't turn lead into gold just by saying "abracadabra". Chemistry works.
Anyway,books such as Stevens,Nick Cook and another book Reich of the Black Sun ,I find interesting as well: I will continue with.
If you find them interesting that's fine, but don't expect people here to agree with you about the authors claims.
Flying saucers(whatever the technology have been PHOTOGRAPHED in New Zealand) and thats good enough for me!
Then you are a sucker that is doomed to be the victim of con artists. You are the kind of person that this forum is trying to save, but you are a lost cause, I think.
A picture of a dark blob in the sky isn't enough to convince me that aliens have traveled billions of light years through space just to study the digestive systems of cows. There are more plausible explanations for those UFO pictures.
I will continue my invetistigations!!!
Go right ahead. But if you can't prove your claims then you're wasting our time.
You'll find other forums where people will be more willing to agree with you. I recommend you try one of them.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Mar 13, 2008 21:25:14 GMT -4
Let's count the insults:
Your right in some ways ,but really your standards are low about 10...where 1 is the highest!
First sentence, first insult. 1.
the kind of science that your hero James Randi doesn't seem to know much about!(hes pathetic) and so is Dawkins
2.
Once again I find your logic a joke really,
3.
you have demonstratable nonsense,
4.
its called IGNORANCE and DELUSION ,
5 and 6.
you see everything in black and white ,and experience is grey!
7.
You have nothing more than a weak logic
8.
I say the level which you are at is low about 10!.I am above that
9.
you don't see the BIG PICTURE!
10.
And like I say my experience is more important than your lack of it!!
11.
I find you have shallow logic about....EVERYTHING!
12.
Perhaps its not wise for you to study Zen.,you probably won't be able to prove if you exist!and that your whole life is just a dream!
13.
so you can stick to your nonsense and delusion
14.
if you were more positive it would help
15.
'"waste of time" you say! thats how +ve YOU ARE!., and I have learnt a few things...more than what you will ever know!!
16.
like I say your level is about 10, I am above that.
17.
does it gratify your EGO to think that your lack of experience is superior to someone else.?
18.
Like I say your level is simplistic.
19.
So I will stick to my experience and you dwell on your lack of it!
20.
Let me know if I missed any.
Altair4, your membership here is hanging by the thinnest thread. If you continue to insult us you will be banned (permanently this time).
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Post by altair4 on Mar 13, 2008 21:29:07 GMT -4
where is your proof MJ12 was a hoax?FBI website?
what would you say to Friedman or Marcel,Jr
A lot of things change as things come to light
and Psychology is a pseudoscience its just crap its an exact science,well documented UFO believers are not researchers,yeah right tell that to people that have seen something themselves I have, and listen to idiots with Ph.D saying there is nothing out there!" read disclosure good book!
you been in Cheyanne Mountain,great !was experience with NORAD an eye opener? you tell me where "orbs" that materialise out of nowhere come from scooter and tell the rest of the world while your at it!IF you can...
Peace everyone!
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Post by altair4 on Mar 13, 2008 21:32:17 GMT -4
I'll try to be nice Lunar Orbit!!
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