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Post by dwight on Sept 5, 2006 6:43:13 GMT -4
This link shows a VHS quality res mpeg of the video. The dust is mostly rested while John Young is in the air both time times. Charlie would more than likely aim to snap the camera while he was at the peak of his jump. www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16salute.mpg
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Post by lionking on Sept 5, 2006 9:02:32 GMT -4
Dwight no movement in the video. can't see when Charlie took the photo, but on Jack White's still photos he took from ?video? , I can see a dust cloud.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Sept 5, 2006 10:22:26 GMT -4
Dwight no movement in the video. can't see when Charlie took the photo, but on Jack White's still photos he took from ?video? , I can see a dust cloud. Hi lionking I looked at this a few months ago and produced some GIFs which show quite clearly what is happening. Check this first one out. I created it using two frames from the video when the astronaut was at or near the top of both jumps. Jack White would have you believe that the astronaut is suspended by a wire... clearly this is not the case, as you can see from the video itself. Secondly, this GIF was created using the two hasselblad images taken of the two jump salutes, www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18339HR.jpg and www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/as16-113-18340HR.jpg. I've superimposed them so that the flagpole is correctly aligned - it doesn't move so is a good reference point. Look underneath John Young's feet. You can clearly see the dust kicked up in one of the images, more visible under his left (right as we are looking) - the features behind the cloud are partially obscured. You can also see the bootprints visible in the next frame, where Young landed after the first jump. Jack White is either incompetent at analysing photographs, or he is lying to you. I'll let you decide! homepage.ntlworld.com/david.greer70/apollo/Jump2.gifEDIT - I've posted the second GIF as a link as its quite wide.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 5, 2006 10:38:20 GMT -4
Please don't post such wide pictures.
Fred
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Sept 5, 2006 10:43:10 GMT -4
Please don't post such wide pictures. Fred You are indeed quite right. I've changed it to a link.
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Post by dwight on Sept 5, 2006 11:57:27 GMT -4
Just to clarify what I did:
I played the Apollo 16 complete mission video DVD at the jump salute point. I watched it in normal speed and watched the dust settling. I then replayed the same sequence at 1/2 speed and then at 1/8 speed. There is a point where the dust has for the most part settled, while John Young is jumping. On both jumps it is evident. I further did manual frame frame advance to double check.
postbag of course has done the photo gif to show what I was sure I could see on the photos. Dust has indeed covered the footprint.
Considering Jack White is at a loss to understand how one Hassleblad could take a photo of two astronauts on Apollo 14, when the 16mm DAC clearly shows the camera handover, I'd have to speculate he is so caught up in his analysis, he has selective vision.
Don't forget, the triggering of the shutter is virtually impossible to see, but given John Young is up on the photos, it would be more than likely that Duke took the shot when Young was at the top of his jump. That is relatively easy to predict with a stills camera.
Dwight
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Post by lionking on Sept 5, 2006 13:50:23 GMT -4
I didn't get it how can I see clearly that the astronaut is not on wire. There is nothing to me suggesting what you say
I can see all details as clear as day in both photos.
dwight I'll search on the internet for the video and see.
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Post by lionking on Sept 5, 2006 14:12:38 GMT -4
dwight your photos aren't clear, Jack's are.
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Post by dwight on Sept 5, 2006 14:22:22 GMT -4
Lionking. I only posted a link to the ALSJ video taken from VHS source. I think you may have me confused with another post regarding posted photos. I used the high resolution versions of the www.apolloarchive.com site postbag made the animated gif which has the reduced colour artifacting on them. Can you just clarify that I am not mistaken here with my posts? Thanks
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Post by lionking on Sept 5, 2006 15:09:46 GMT -4
now I am confused. What do you mean by you were mistaken by posts? No, we are speaking about the jump salute and cloud of dust.
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Post by dwight on Sept 5, 2006 15:25:04 GMT -4
I didn't use any photos in my posts. Although I did refer to high resolution Apollo 16 jump salute scans via www.apolloarchive.com Which unclear photos do you mean? postbaguk's?
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Sept 5, 2006 15:44:50 GMT -4
I didn't get it how can I see clearly that the astronaut is not on wire. There is nothing to me suggesting what you say I can see all details as clear as day in both photos. dwight I'll search on the internet for the video and see. Lionking The first GIF was made as I described, by selecting two frames from the video when Young was at the top of both jumps. You can see quite clearly from the video that he isn't being suspended by a wire! Jack White is claiming that he was suspended by a wire in mid-air while both photos were taken, i.e. he never "jumped". The first GIF is to show that despite two "photos" being taken when he is at the top of the jump, you cannot simply claim that this means he was suspended by a wire - I was able to recreate the same effect from a video which clearly shows the astronaut jumping. Regarding the Hasselblad images - if you can see all details as clear as day then you will also be able to see where the dust is kicked up in this image www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18339HR.jpg, and a much clearer view of the bootprint under his right foot in this image www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/as16-113-18340HR.jpg. If you can't make out the dust, I've highlighted the area it is most visible below to make it easier to spot on the hi-res image.
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Post by nomuse on Sept 5, 2006 15:48:32 GMT -4
Lionking, what postbaguk means about the wire is that, if you look at the inline gif he posted in this thread, the astronaut is visibly pitching and rolling as he jumps. There is no wire rig that I know of capable of allowing those motions. A wire, you see, can not attach to one's center of mass. There's a little problem of there being a body in the way (and in the astronaut's case, a suit and pack as well). The common wire systems are all _external_ to the center of mass of the person being lifted. A single wire gives you the ability to twirl (it supports you from above your center of mass). A double wire can give you ability to somersault (it supports on either side of your center of mass). You can not twirl _and_ somersault on the same rig; you'd be either crossing wires, or trying to climb a wire. (Well, okay, you could...double wire to waist picks, running up to bridle rig picked on center with a pivot. But you would still move IN PLANE of the first support; it would not allow you to tip forward and sideways _and_ twist at the same time.)
Here's the eyeball check. Go up to that gif again. Find ANY spot on the astronaut that is A) above his center of mass, and B) is not in movement relative to his flight path. There is none. It simply isn't mechanically possible to put a stiff suspension (aka wire or wires) on John Young and recreate that motion.
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Post by HeadLikeARock (was postbaguk) on Sept 5, 2006 16:24:01 GMT -4
Lionking, what postbaguk means about the wire is that, if you look at the inline gif he posted in this thread, the astronaut is visibly pitching and rolling as he jumps. There is no wire rig that I know of capable of allowing those motions. A wire, you see, can not attach to one's center of mass. There's a little problem of there being a body in the way (and in the astronaut's case, a suit and pack as well). The common wire systems are all _external_ to the center of mass of the person being lifted. A single wire gives you the ability to twirl (it supports you from above your center of mass). A double wire can give you ability to somersault (it supports on either side of your center of mass). You can not twirl _and_ somersault on the same rig; you'd be either crossing wires, or trying to climb a wire. (Well, okay, you could...double wire to waist picks, running up to bridle rig picked on center with a pivot. But you would still move IN PLANE of the first support; it would not allow you to tip forward and sideways _and_ twist at the same time.) Here's the eyeball check. Go up to that gif again. Find ANY spot on the astronaut that is A) above his center of mass, and B) is not in movement relative to his flight path. There is none. It simply isn't mechanically possible to put a stiff suspension (aka wire or wires) on John Young and recreate that motion. nomuse It's far simpler than that. Jack White is claiming that Young is SUSPENDED by a wire, and never actually jumped. www.aulis.com/jackstudies_1a.htmlLooking at the video, clearly he did. Looking at the Hasselblads images, there is clearly dust kicked up - he must have jumped. Jack White also claims that Young is in exactly the same position for each "jump photo" - this is simply wrong. Look at the hi-res images - see the horizontal yellow line I've drawn in - both photos are taken with Young at different heights. And now read what Jack White wants you to believe!
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Bob B.
Bob the Excel Guru?
Posts: 3,072
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Post by Bob B. on Sept 5, 2006 16:38:10 GMT -4
If the camera was on a tripod, why did the distance mountain move on the right side of the photos?
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