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Post by AtomicDog on Mar 2, 2007 12:15:48 GMT -4
I was watching the Apollo 16 DVD last night and I was struck by this scene: www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/a16v_1491136.mpgIn it Charlie Duke falls and recovers while pushing a penetrometer into the ground. His movements are too fast to have been a Earth-shot video played back at half speed, so this leaves only the possibility of a wire harness being used if the scene was hoaxed. But note this: in one take, Duke not only moves around his X, Y, and Z axis, but he rolls, too! I may be mistaken, but I have never heard of a harness rig that could give one such complete freedom of movement in all directions. Also, note that when Duke pushes himself off the ground, he rotates in mid-space around his center of mass. Isn't that that the point where a harness has to be attached to the astronaut? Why then can't we see any sign of such attachment?
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Post by Grand Lunar on Mar 2, 2007 12:38:52 GMT -4
Indeed, if a harness was used, then with all that motion, it'd make itself known.
Another HB claim bites the dust.
Speaking of dust, they sure got dirty on the moon! I wonder how the new moonwalkers will handle the lunar dust.
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Post by Data Cable on Mar 2, 2007 15:02:27 GMT -4
I wonder how the new moonwalkers will handle the lunar dust. Lunar DustBuster. ;D
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Post by svector on Mar 2, 2007 15:14:08 GMT -4
I wonder how the new moonwalkers will handle the lunar dust. Lunar DustBuster. ;D Or how about a "Moonba"? ;D
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Post by AtomicDog on Mar 2, 2007 15:18:56 GMT -4
Also, note that any harness attached to his midsection is going to interfere with his arm movement and would also tangle with his PLSS when he falls. I don't see any evidence that Duke is being tangled up in any wires of any sort.
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Post by BertL on Mar 2, 2007 15:21:27 GMT -4
But look at when the astronaut says "five inches"! He kicks up dust and the dust spread! Maybe some wrong dust got into the studio set!?!
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 2, 2007 16:09:42 GMT -4
I've been doing stage flight effects for about 20 years. None of the harnesses and rigs I've used allow you to do that.
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Post by Mr Gorsky on Mar 2, 2007 17:08:34 GMT -4
Yeah, but these are top secret NASA rigs that still haven't been made public.
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Post by nomuse on Mar 2, 2007 17:20:44 GMT -4
Heh. I made the same comment a while back when someone used this one as a "looky looky at the wires on this fake NASA pic!" To wit, that if there was a wire the pick point or points were moving all over the scene (which is not, basically, plausible.)
Plus the argument from simplicity; if the hoaxers were going to fake low gravity in a shot or two, they'd go out and get industry standard equipment and leverage the great experience that is already out in the world for wire-work, and they'd plan the shot around that standard harness and the type of travel offered by one of the basic systems.
Heck, the tracking Foy rig was a mystery and a marvel to most audiences at that point, and would work perfectly to get a nice "bounding along in low gravity" look. So why confuse the issue by using the wire rig in one shot where A) you didn't need it to make it look like low gravity, B) where it would give itself away by the unnatural movements caused, and C) where it would be monstrously complicated technically, with all sorts of clever pulley arrangements to allow tipping and somersault and off-center rotation all at once.
Pity this isn't the sort of argument HB's accept. To them, complicated is good, planning is ridiculous (apparently this entire super-complicated fake ended up depending on film that was basically shot "we'll make it up as we go along"), and anything that seems really obviously stupid was in fact the ultra-clever actions of a behind-the-scenes whistleblower.
(And I just got through tech week for a show that was quite complex enough for our production team -- so I can't type straight. I'm amazed I can type at all.)
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 2, 2007 18:02:15 GMT -4
...if the hoaxers were going to fake low gravity in a shot or two, they'd go out and get industry standard equipment and leverage the great experience that is already out in the world for wire-work...
No, that's how you and I would work. That's not apparently how conspiracists think.
I surmise that few if any conspiracists have actually accomplished anything of consequence. If they had, they'd know how difficult most things are to do and how much experience pays when the task is significant. In the real world you leverage the state of the art, even if someone else controls it. In conspiracy Bizarro-World, NASA wouldn't use any existing technology because they'd have to contract for it, and that would mean someone could blow the whistle. So they say NASA omnipotently recreates or reinvents whatever they need.
Of course my foot's in my mouth now because my theater designed and built its own fly rig for about $50,000. We used P.E. engineers for safety, of course, but the design is specific to our space. Prior to that, the bids we got from Foy and elsewhere were in the $200K to $500K range and were for more than we asked for or needed. In our case we eschewed the state of the art because it wasn't cost-effective for us.
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Post by nomuse on Mar 2, 2007 18:27:18 GMT -4
Just to drag the thread completely off, you ever get a look at the rig the Cirque uses? Yow.
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Post by JayUtah on Mar 2, 2007 21:57:33 GMT -4
Scala does mechanicals both for C.d.S shows and for our theater. We perform on a Scala Spiralift stage.
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Post by rodionh on Mar 2, 2007 23:47:16 GMT -4
Whenever we do those astronomy shows that explain to people about Apollo and the hoax ideas, showing THAT particular video showing Charlie and the probe, automatically convinces more than half of the audience that they are seeing an authentic "there's a man on the moon" video...but it's because most of the audience are physics, math, engineering and chemistry students here -RODION
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Post by Apollo Gnomon on Mar 3, 2007 4:22:38 GMT -4
I just watched the first episode of "Lost in Space" with my kids tonite. During a moment of crisis the pilot has to "shut off the gravity," leading to a really obvious flying-rig scene. The people "floating" around the Jupiter2 managed to find the only dark areas of the ship to tumble in, I presume to hide the wires. Looking at the motion with this thread in mind, I could easily tell where the lifting hardware was attached to the actors.
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Post by nomuse on Mar 3, 2007 5:38:09 GMT -4
I'd be prepared to add movement specialists to that little list; dancers and choreographers, circus artists and trainers, probably gymnasts and maybe rock climbers as well; these are all people with highly developed instincts for centers of moment on the human body and bio-mechanical leverages. I don't think many of them would be swayed by the "there's a wire somewhere" argument. Many of these disciplines WORK with wires (or similar) and are quite aware of the movement effects.
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