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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Apr 29, 2009 23:58:46 GMT -4
Right. There's no real vaccine. Word is that the old H5N1 (avian flu) vaccine will be given--this is the vaccine Baxter got caught contaminating with live viruses.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Apr 29, 2009 23:30:22 GMT -4
WHO declared a Level 5 alert against the weaponized "swine" flu. I hope to God it's not the real thing, but we're in danger of martial law, forced vaccinations and quarantine in FEMA camps. I'm getting my information from infowars.com (Alex Jones). If you love your life, do NOT take any vaccine.
This is a friendly alert. Please check out this information before killing the messenger.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 19, 2009 23:44:45 GMT -4
Jason,
I'm very tired. I want to answer your last 2 posts very much, but it's going to be a few more days.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 17, 2009 16:42:27 GMT -4
John 14: 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
First of all, the Holy Spirit is not an “it.” He is a person. Since Pentecost He indwells every born again believer. All Christians have received enough light to understand the gospel which was once and forever given. None of us are in disagreement with that. A believer’s understanding of scripture is related to how much scripture he is exposed to. A diligent student of the Word naturally understands more than someone who neglects study.
No argument. And yet Jesus never once spoke of prophets to come. Jesus is the prophet who detailed the future of His church and the end of the world
Right. Show me.
And Jesus is a prophet, right?
Jason, I’m treating you like a person who has some understanding of the bible. Naturally I assume that you understood I was referring to Revelation as the book in question. My point is that, even if an organization doesn’t change the writings of the book by addition or deletion of the text, they still stand condemned if, by any of their writings, they teach a different destiny of mankind, which your church does. There’s heaven and hell. The saved and the damned. The eternal destination of the believer is to be with God on the new earth as His beloved child—not as a god on his own planet.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
These verses refer to the rapture of the Church, not the second coming of Christ. The gathering comes before the antichrist is revealed—then the great tribulation. And the rapture doesn’t come until there first comes a falling away. I believe this falling away is apostasy of the church in departing from the scriptures. Christianity in general is falling away from the truth and is giving heed to false prophets and bad doctrine. The Latter Day Saints never had the truth so they have nothing to fall away from.
By what authority do the LDS claim that Christ’s teachings were lost between the death of the apostles and Joseph Smith?
Yes, but God’s Word wasn’t lost, was it? Hardened hearts blinded them His Word. The people were also dispersed.
You haven’t proven that there were any prophets after the 1st century.
Your explanation is just an excuse for the failed prophecy. If it doesn’t happen the way God says it will happen, then the prophecy is false. Joseph Smith, claiming to speak for God, gave a clear time frame and location for the building of the temple and it didn’t happen that way. There is no excuse. God is in control of men and events and causes His Word to be fulfilled. Period.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 17, 2009 15:16:18 GMT -4
Which is it, DH, is the condition only that it be inspired by God, or that it be inspired byGod and also contain prophecy? Or is it only that it contain prophecy? There are several books in the Bible that don't contain any prophecies. Are they scripture? ... It isn't just one thing. THE condition is that the writing be inspired by God. One of the proofs that an author is speaking for God is fulfilled prophecy. These prophesies are not contained in every book, as you very well know. I guess neither you nor gwiz read this. Can we go on or do I have to keep repeating myself?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 17, 2009 4:43:20 GMT -4
Jason, I've answered your questions re inspiration of scripture and ancient manuscripts to the best of my ability. I am not educated in the area of ancient manuscripts but there are experts on the subject you can consult. Well, then it appears you don't in fact have any solid, consistant criteria for determining what is inspired writing. What you've outlined in prior posts doesn't suffice for determining why the Song of Solomon, for instance, should be considered inspired. You seem to be relying primarily on arguments from authority. "It's in the Bible, so it is scripture" for instance. That begs the question of why you should trust the judgement of those experts who believe the Bible is inspired and not the judgement of experts who don't believe the Bible is inspired scripture. Am I reading your position correctly? The consistent criterion for determining inspiration is, and has always been, the Holy Spirit that indwells God's people--not experts. Many people see the hand of God in the Song of Solomon. Others may not. It looks like those who have eyes to see were the ones to make the determination. God inspired the writings, but it's men who see God in the writings. No one person understands everything written. Yes, it does (make me wrong), if you limit prophecy to only new revelation of God's plan for mankind. The scriptural support has already been given. What was Jesus talking about when He said the law and the prophets were until John? Are you going to just dismiss it? Historically, there isn't any new revelation that has been uncovered. The reason given in the articles is that the church prophets filled a gap until the NT writings became available. Scriptural support is, again, Christ's statement that the law and the prophets were until John. Also: Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Any "new" revelation regarding salvation would have to be in agreement with the gospel preached by the apostles and therefore wouldn't be new (or necessary). Any new revelation concerning the last things is covered here: Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Do the LDS have a different gospel from the gospel preached by Jesus and the apostles? Do the LDS claim a different future for mankind other than that revealed by Jesus in Revelation? I know what 1 Corinthians says. It didn't need to predict the end of prophecy, but historically we know that there are no more prophets for the reason I gave above. It doesn't need to reference a completed canon of scripture either. We only need to hold fast to the doctrine already given, as we are instructed time and again. It's restricted only because there are no more prophets. There are self-proclaimed prophets, but they don't meet the test of a prophet. I've already shown that Joseph Smith doesn't pass that test with just the one failed prophecy I previously posted. "Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house... 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed." (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) Mr. Smith claimed "Yea, the word of the Lord." That means he was speaking for God as a prophet. He claimed God told him that a temple would be built in Missouri. He claimed that temple would be built during the lifetime of the generation hearing the prophecy. It didn't happen. The test of a prophet claiming to speak for God is that the prophecy must come to pass. It didn't. A temple being built in Kirtland, Ohio doesn't fulfill the terms of the prophecy. God neither makes mistakes nor requires the assistance of men to make His words come true. God controls men and events in order to fulfill His words and He never fails. It only takes one failed prophecy to make a false prophet.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 16, 2009 14:49:03 GMT -4
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 11, 2009 1:12:46 GMT -4
DH, you have indeed contradicted yourself on whether prophecy is the criteria for a work to be considered inspired. Reading all your posts, I am under the impression that your real position is similar to my own: the presence of prophecy is not a condition for a writing to be considered inspired, but if prophecy is present it must be accurate. I beg to differ. I haven't contradicted myself. I have stated at least twice that not all the books of the bible contain prophecies. I have also stated at least twice that not all the prophecies have been fulfilled. I have also stated that prophecy is not the only criteria. I suspect the problem is that gwiz is semi-illiterate and thinks that when I say prophecies must be fulfilled with 100% I mean that all the prophecies contained in the bible (past or future) must be fulfilled for them to be considered accurate.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 10, 2009 11:31:43 GMT -4
That's not what I said gwiz. Not all the books of the bible contain prophecy. Of the ones that do contain prophecy, that prophecy must be 100% accurate. Not all prophecies have been fulfilled, but many have been. Are we good? Just to remind you, this is exactly what you said: and when I asked you how accurate a prophesy had to be to be inspired, you said: God drew the line at 100% accuracy. There are some amazing fulfilled prophecies in the bible. You are going round in circles here, and making no sense. I don't understand what the problem is. There's nothing wrong with my answers. Maybe the way you're wording your questions isn't getting you the response you want. We can't tell if the actual prophecy is accurate until it has been fulfilled. The fulfillment must correlate exactly with what was prophecied. Is that what you mean?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 10, 2009 2:40:32 GMT -4
To get the context, let’s start at the beginning of the chapter.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Fulfilled in 69 A.D. by the future emperor Titus. The Roman soldiers burned the temple twice. The gold treasure in it melted and flowed down between the stones. The soldiers used iron rods to pry the stones apart to get the gold.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples ask Jesus 3 questions and Jesus answers those questions as 3 different prophetic subjects.
1. When shall these things be? 2. What shall be the sign of your coming (return)? 3. What shall be the sign of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
No specific time reference is given – yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The end of what? The end of the world as we know it or the end of the age. My interpretation is that it covers the time from creation up to the beginning of millennial reign of Christ. It also fits with events described in Revelation. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
The reference is to Daniel 9:27 concerning the antichrist – future.
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
This refers to the Great Tribulation under the antichrist-future.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Described in Revelation – future.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Christ’s return to earth – future.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
All what things? The things above that take place during the great tribulation under the antichrist.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Which generation? The generation that sees all the things concerning the events described above and in Revelation concerning the great tribulation under antichrist.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Everything after verse 2 is still future.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 10, 2009 1:23:52 GMT -4
The most ancient copies of the original manuscripts are still in existence. I'm not sure what your point is there. The "most ancient copies" is simply another way of saying "the oldest copies we still have" - there probably were older copies than what has survived, and we have no originals of any Biblical text. The "most ancient copies" were made directly from the original manuscripts and the "most ancient copies" are still in existence. I'm sure you know how the scribes made these copies. So I'm saying nothing was lost of the original manuscripts. Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.There have been no prophets since John the Baptist. Jesus foretold the end of all things. There's nothing (new) to be added. There are some pretty good people who believe Solomon did write it. It does fail the tests I offered, but those aren't all the tests. I have to admit that it doesn't do much for me either. Nevertheless, I haven't studied this book and even find the commentary on it kind of boring, but that's as far as I can go without knowing more about it. No you don't. With just that one failed prophecy Joseph Smith demonstrated that he didn't speak for God. In ancient Israel he wouldn't have been allowed to live to make another. But under grace we don't stone false prophets anymore...we're just told to avoid them. Does that sentence say what you wanted it to say? And you determine that some parts are not inspired based on what? Or because it's bogus. Modern day so-called prophets/psychics may get some things right. They also get things wrong. One wrong prophecy disqualifies that person from being considered a prophet of God. I know the kind of stuff that's out there. It's rubbish. Would you care to provide an example of something you consider worthwhile? By the gospel they preach. It must be in agreement with the scriptures. All believers should be able to relate the gospel, but not all are called to do so as a "vocation." That's a gift of the Holy Spirit. No I didn't. I gave you a super answer that says it all. Instead of asking who determines if a prophecy is wrong, shouldn't you be asking what factors prove a prophecy failed? I'd like to deal with Matthew 24 in a separate post. How do you decide what parts are inspired and what parts aren't?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 10, 2009 0:30:30 GMT -4
Not to butt in here too much, but what do you two think of the Apocrypha? It was even in the KJV until 1640. I pretty much agree with Jason. There is some truth (that doesn't mean those parts re necessarily inspired) in the Apocrypha, but there are also problems. Not all of it should be discounted, but in my opinion a person would need to be a pretty good bible scholar to pick up on what is worthwhile.
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 9, 2009 17:31:42 GMT -4
What is your evidence that Solomon isn't inspired? On your very own argument, it isn't inspired if it doesn't have 100% fulfilled prophesies. That's not what I said gwiz. Not all the books of the bible contain prophecy. Of the ones that do contain prophecy, that prophecy must be 100% accurate. Not all prophecies have been fulfilled, but many have been. Are we good?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 8, 2009 23:22:24 GMT -4
[modified because I accidentally deleted my answer] The most ancient copies of the original manuscripts are still in existence. I'm sure some religious writings have been destroyed, but I'm confident that God had the power to preserve what He wants us to know--without saying that any of the supposedly destroyed documents were inspired. Are you hinting that God was unable to keep together a record of what He wants us to know? Since you're the one who opened with doubt concerning its authenticity, isn't the burden of proof on you? What is your evidence that Solomon isn't inspired? If it's something we can't know, then why are we discussing it? If an inspired writer refers to a history book or civil records, why must you suppose those books must be inspired? It doesn't at all diminish prophecy's value as a test. If you want to argue, you should be saying that any book that doesn't contain prophecy isn't inspired, yet you're not saying that for some reason. If there is any other writing that has the prophetic accuracy of the bible and if it's available anywhere, I would know about it. And so would you. It would be really big news. The atheists, agnostics would be all over it. It doesn't exist. The "associates" in the NT were related to an apostle (John Mark), a disciple of Jesus (Luke), relatives and disciples of Jesus (James and Jude). And all of them were eyewitnesses of the events. Barnabas, Silas. An apostle is one who is sent by Christ to preach the gospel. No, they don't have to write anything. The main way the faith was transmitted in the first century was by preaching. Yes, and they have been proven wrong, but they just keep at it. The archeological finds just keep on validating the scripture. Anyone can, when the prophet gives a definite time frame and the event does not occur. For example: "Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house... 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed." (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) It didn't happen. Regard your other statements, rather than giving you a reason, why don't you be a little more forthcoming. Are you saying that the books (you may except Solomon) that make up our bible are not inspired? If you don't, please tell me why. If you do, then why all the questions?
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Post by Dead Hoosiers on Feb 8, 2009 2:30:47 GMT -4
How do we know they didn't write anything else? I don't know that we can tell. First of all, there could be any number of other reasons why a religious writing wasn't preserved other than "nobody thought it was inspired." Such as? I don't think you are qualified to make the determination that The Song of Solomon isn't inspired any more than I'm qualified to state that it is. Again, you aren't qualified to make that determination, are you? Nor have you offered any evidence to support your belief that any of the books you listed are possibly inspired. I never said all the books contain prophecy--you said I said it. I claim that the prophecies which have already been fulfilled have been fulfilled with 100% accuracy. There aren't any other books outside the bible that can make that claim. God Himself said that we would know He was God by the prophecies coming to pass. Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Some of the qualifications are that the book be written by a prophet (OT, and the people of the time knew who they were) or apostle or an associate of an apostle (such as Timothy and Luke). An inspired writing gives glory to God. It condemns sin. It has a miraculous element to it. It speaks to those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Some things that would exclude a writing from being considered inspired would be errors, either historical or geographical, writings containing failed prophecies, writings that contradict the recognized, inspired writings of the bible.
(modified to add) Scripture is doubly validated when it is quoted or referred to by another prophet or apostle (or Jesus). I repeat that not every writing mentioned in scripture is considered scripture. I'm only referring to the inspired texts which are in the canon.
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