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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 11, 2011 4:47:20 GMT -4
Science shouldn't be about personalities. It doesn't matter who makes an argument. It matters what the quality of the argument is. You're right Gillianren. I have a succumbed again where Jarrah is concerned. My frustration floweth over.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 20:30:50 GMT -4
In the sense of video production. Regardless of believes, I think a video production teacher would give him an A for his documentaries. As a scientist I give him a big fat fail. We're dealing with slandering the efforts of cutting edge engineers, brilliant scientists, incredible project management, the sweat of blue collar workers, the skill of technicians and the audacious bravery of the astronauts. Between them they achieved something that was very worthwhile and notable. It's not about presentation and style. That's empty sentiment and has no place in the debate. The argument is about fact and doing what is right in honour of the people that made it possible. He's an intellectual coward. Do you not find it suspicious that he has been making his Moonfaker videos for 5 years now, yet he has not got the courage of his own convictions to present his work to experts and shock the scientific world with his findings? Do you not find that odd? What sort of truth does he seek? Or is all bluster and chest beating from behind the veil of pretty graphics cut to appealing music? What does it come down to Vincent? A show and tell project, or the truth he claims to hold so dear? No more beating about the bush now. If he had the courage of his convictions what should he do next: (a) Carry on producing his Moonfaker videos. (b) Write up his work and challenge the scientific community. (a) or (b)?
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 20:11:39 GMT -4
Whether I agree or not, I gotta say, MoonFaker is VERY WELL PUT TOGETHER. Sorry to disagree with you Vincent. In what respect? It's a tiresome pile of long winded nonsense. It is riddled with logical fallacies, quote mining, cherry picked data and a good dose of egotistical, chest thumping ad hominen attacks. As I explained in a previous thread, there is a difference between skepticism and conspiracism. Moonfaker is conspiracism, and is flown under a pseudo-political agenda of distrust toward NASA. It is nothing more than a vile, venomous attack on others. Simple question: Have you asked Jarrah if the sources he quotes claim that Apollo was faked? He's never answered that question. He quotes many authors and their research, and not one of them disputes the Apollo landings. Therefore Moonfaker fails from first principles. Jay has a good line for it. Maybe he can provide his words as I cannot find the post. (Jay, if you would be so kind, but you had a great line that pertained to Jarrah invoking the expertise of scientists to support his claims, while avoiding the fact they believed Apollo was authentic.)
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 19:46:44 GMT -4
Whether his mental health was in check, as some have suggested, is not my business to deal with, but to ME, suicide seems extreme. It is, by its very nature suicide is very extreme. That's what makes it so shocking. But it is the last resort for many people. There are some people that feel so much despair with their life that they cannot go on. There are those in so much pain that they cannot go on. There are those that are burdened with debt they cannot go on. It's a fact of life, and sadly an extreme fact. Unless you have been close to the point and dragged yourself back, you will probably never realise how extreme and desperate your life has become. It is hard to comprehend unless you have sunk to those depths and had those such awful thoughts. I have known people that have felt suicidal or have attempted to take their life. It's hard to rationalise.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 19:34:50 GMT -4
Is the chair your own work Vincent? Good effort if it was. The multiple shadows and peculiar shadow angles has to be the most idiotic of all the hoax claims.
Have a good dig around Clavius (Jay's site) and the photography section. Jay covers many aspects of shadows and lighting in that section. It is a good read.
The one concept that the HBs do not understand is vanishing point. The other issue is the whole spotlight and fall off argument. It is all explained at Clavius.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 19:10:43 GMT -4
It's still awesome news though. Agree. It will be interesting to see what comes out. It won't convince the doubters, but then that was known before the first LRO images. I guess they don't want their little world torn down. Tough, the LRO has provided the goods and shown their claims to be noise. What idiots they must feel.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 19:00:29 GMT -4
Walmart decided to drop the price on the Nintendo 3DS 3 days early. Starting yesterday the price was $169.99. So what you might say? Those who get a 3DS and connect to the internet before the official price drop on Friday get 20 free downloadable games by the end of the year from Nintendo. I bought one myself last night. I was going to get one at BestBuy and go back next week to get a price adjustment but now I don't have to. Walmart saved themselves a lot of hassle with people getting price matches and got extra customers in the process. You need to come to the UK. Most cities have dropped the price of goods to £0.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 18:44:14 GMT -4
I see that svector has beaten me to this. I'm glad he admits that he regrets some comments at 911 forum. However, I can perfectly understand that svector let of steam given the accusations that were thrown at him. Do you think it is right to accuse someone of pedophilia without evidence? I'd like an answer to that question please.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 18:34:04 GMT -4
To add to my earlier comment, a recanting hoax believer should also apologize to those he has slandered and personally attacked. Although forgiveness would be hard won if it came at all. I certainly believe that any HB should apologise for personal attacks. However, a vast majority are probably those that are gullible, and through no fault of their own may have been dragged into hoax by manipulative individuals. It is the latter that I think should offer an apology, but I think I would have problems accepting their repentance. I think your words have helped me crystallise my own thoughts and how I should approach those that recant.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 18:09:34 GMT -4
... but why does nobody mention him directly? Like it's taboo or something?? I could never understand that. Many people here choose to ignore him, and rightly so. I am weaker when his name his mentioned, and that is my eternal sin. I'll explain why. When I first found the hoax community at YouTube, I made some comments and tired to discuss things in a friendly way. I was met by a hail of bullets and venom. I began sharing a few PMs with 'Apollo' believers and heard some fairly unsavory stories about a few of the HBers. There was one story where an HBer tried to get someone the sack from work. He actually tracked the other person down at work. Then there was the case of svector being accused of sexual acts with children by some of the HBers. As I got further into their community I thought it best to withdraw from the debate. I then stepped back with a new YT account, and again met the same venom. In the end I was also accused of sexual acts toward children. That was like a red rag to a bull with me. I admit, in the end I gave back as good as I got, and it proved Jarrah and his friends could dish it, but they couldn't take it. That is fact. As I have mentioned in a previous thread, I am quite an abrasive character in life when riled. I used to play front row rugby union which is fairly confrontational, albeit in a controlled way. I stand at 6' 3" and am about 240 lbs when fit. I'm not one to back down. Given my previous experiences with him and his attack dogs, when Jarrah and his friends are discussed here I find it hard not to get involved in that discussion. If the admin was to write my report card I think it would read. 'Luke is a good listener, but he needs to step back and count to ten when Jarrah's name is mentioned.'So, most sensible people choose to ignore him. I'm probably the opposite, to my detriment. As a side note, I think this is the reason why your appearance at YouTube alarmed people. It was not so much about your beliefs, it was simply that you seemed to be taken under his wing and he is NOT the role model you need in life. I've always said this - if anyone wishes to be skeptical about Apollo then that is fine. It is about asking questions in the right way. If you still do not believe the answers then that is an individual choice. There is no Apollo Hoax movement, you either believe they went or you do not. There's no point directing venom at people under some banner of hate with a pseudo-political agenda. If JW and his friends want to be treated with credibility and respect, then they need to show sincerity and honesty toward those principles and begin by having an open debate. Not hiding themselves at YouTube accusing others of illegal acts without evidence, or slandering people of good standing (Jay being the main example). The way you got suckered into their world was shocking. It is a world of hatred and utter contempt, and I think people were concerned for you to be involved in such an enterprise at your age. Believe me, I was party to some private exchanges and there was real concern expressed for you and your welfare. Controlled and well mannered skepticism is not a bad thing. In fact, most scientists are skeptics by nature. ka9q has written here a few times about how scientists are rarely happy with their own work, and often their own worst critics. The HBers will tell you that scientists just tow the party line, and it is they that are the real skeptics and critical thinkers. They are not. Try reading about Einstein and Dirac, and you'll see real critical thinking at work. ka9q's words resonate strongly with me. I have a PhD in physics, and when I look back at my thesis now I think how it could be written differently, or how I could have taken more data to check my conclusions, or whether my new ideas were consistent, or if I had missed a piece of literature that was key. I am very proud of my PhD, since it was may aim to study at that level from an early age. But I'm not happy with it. It could be better, even though I know that I met the grade. If you choose to go back to believing the hoax theory, then I hope you can do it as a true skeptic and not as a conspiracy theorist. Skepticism is OK, conspiracism is not. I hope you understand the difference. I will respect someone that is skeptical about Apollo and is prepared to have honest debate and ask valid questions. I have nothing but contempt for conspiracism.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 17:27:12 GMT -4
I am not clear that they have done any great damage to the world nor that they have done anything for which I could give them my forgiveness. It is not as if being a denier of Apollo is really going to lead others into something radical that would materially harm people. In contrast to a holocaust denier, where a political motivation would by more likely to be lurking under the doubt. Sometimes a kook is just a kook. A HB needs to apologize to those he has mislead, and come clean about his motives and the underpinning of his former beliefs. A reformed HB should have to work especially hard at that to gain acceptance back into reasoned society. That is an interesting and well balanced answer. I would have severe reservations with accepting any form of apology from David Percy or Marcus Allen. It is my belief that they climbed on the hoax wagon for profit and have exploited gullible people. If Bill Kaysing was alive, and renounced his claims with an apology, then I think I would be more accepting. I do believe their views are harmful though. In some instances they are exploitive, and in some instances I feel that they are damaging people's attitudes towards science and engineering. That is harmful to productive society. On the flip side though, I guess there are always going to be individuals that are lost by the wayside and will be picked up by those that promulgate kooky ideas. Not everyone will feel part of mainstream society, and not will everyone have the capacity for rational and logicalthought. In my mind it is a difficult issue.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 15:14:41 GMT -4
My last involvement with Rene was while helping produce a pilot for a History Channel series. Rene at that time seemed to show signs I would associate with paranoia. I don't believe he was mentally healthy during the two years or so leading up to his death. But I have no evidence at all that whatever mental illness I may have perceived had anything to with his beliefs about Apollo or any of this other publications. I concur with your observations. I think those close to Ralph say he was in incredible amounts of pain that would drive most humans over the edge. He had severe arthritis in the hips (as you are probably aware). I do however have personal views about him that some might deem distasteful. I will not express them here.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 10, 2011 15:04:54 GMT -4
That is excellent. Really loook forward it. It's a shame it will only be in the lower orbit for 5 days, since it took several months to take the Apollo images at different sun angles and captue different features from the distrubed regolith. This is an hypothetical question, but if Kaysing and Rene were alive, and this provided them with proof to admit they were wrong. Would people here forgive them if they said sorry. It's an issue I have with existing hoax proponents. I find it hard to accept their reversal to the the truth given how much damage they have done.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 9, 2011 17:58:07 GMT -4
I've given this some thought on the way to supermarket and back, and think it might be a good idea to leave this thread where it is now. echnaton is correct. The original intent of the thread is exhausted, and the discussions have entered into gossip and speculation. I'm probably the most guilty of this. Time to leave his nibs alone and give him the obscurity he richly deserves.
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Post by lukepemberton on Aug 9, 2011 11:10:45 GMT -4
Or the other car is reversing into you at high speed. It's all relative.
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