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Post by fattydash on Jul 12, 2011 0:47:49 GMT -4
I wanted to start this as a new thread, but LunarOrbit suggested that I had enough going on, and after pausing to think about it for a moment, I agree. So I will just paste the post here as it is relevant to the Lost Bird theme and speaks directly/answers directly in response to the many questions already posed to me as regards what was known about the astronauts' position and specifically in what detail, to what accuracy. Thanks for the comment on the other side LunarOrbit , I tend to agree with your point. It was well taken. From CAPCOM, Apollo 11 Transcript at 04 06 49 39 CC "Eagle, Houston. You loaded R2 wrong. We want 10254." Now how interesting is that!!!!! Interesting, I'll say! Especially after one reads this in Flight International Magazine from 21 August 1969, from Angus McPherson's piece, "The Eagle's Roost"; "The last reading given on the Eagle DSKY(display key-board) before touchdown was Lat 0 41' 15" N, Long 23 26' 00" E" What a pity the CAPCOM and his colleagues knew what was on the Eagle DSKY and for some odd reason Neil and Buzz, for the life of them couldn't figure out where they were. Matter of fact, there was a whole squad of US Geological Survey people looking for the Eagle based on the description Armstrong and Aldrin were providing of the Hollywood terrain at "Tranquility Base". Perhaps the astronauts should have provided the US Geological Survey crew with a description of the DSKY in front of their noses instead of trying to describe the powder on the stage lot. Funny how lies always surface, even when you try and hide them on the moon.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 12, 2011 0:31:39 GMT -4
From CAPCOM, Apollo 11 Transcript at 04 06 49 39 CC "Eagle, Houston. You loaded R2 wrong. We want 10254." Now how interesting is that!!!!! Interesting, I'll say! Especially after one reads this in Flight International Magazine from 21 August 1969, from Angus McPherson's piece, "The Eagle's Roost"; "The last reading given on the Eagle DSKY(display key-board) before touchdown was Lat 0 41' 15" N, Long 23 26' 00" E" What a pity the CAPCOM and his colleagues knew what was on the Eagle DSKY and for some odd reason Neil an Buzz, for the life of them couldn't figure out where they were. Matter of fact, there was a whole squad of US Geological Survey people looking for the Eagle based on the description Armstrong and Aldrin were providing of the Hollywood terrain at "Tranquility Base". Perhaps the astronauts should have provided the US Geological Survey crew with a description of the DSKY in front of their noses instead of trying to describe the powder on the stage lot. Funny how lies always surface, even when you try and hide them on the moon.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 21:16:01 GMT -4
For Lunar Orbit above,
You are absolute right LunarOrbit. Such attitude/behavior on my part serves no one, including myself. I was frustrated as is obvious from the context.
I apologize to Jason and to the forum. I meant no disrepesct.
Thanks for the post.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 15:48:21 GMT -4
For Scooter above. That point about why the LM guidance is the only available means of determining coordinates was thoroughly covered in my response to Jay in #179 as well as in #125/#126.
If you care to object to the points I made in my response to Jay at #179, by all means. Please have at it.
Jay seemed to accept the statement that the guidance system is the only means of determining landing coordinates given the circumstances under consideration.
If you see things otherwise, please tell me what methods you would employ in determining the coordinates of your LM sans MIT guidance tools. Direct question scooter.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 15:15:05 GMT -4
For Zakalwe at #192 and #193
This point was well covered in my post at #126, but since you brought it up again, let's go through the details so there is no confusion.
Remington Stone was the telescope operator at Lick Observatory on 07/20/1969. At the time of Armstrong and Aldrin's moonwalk, the NASA personal in Houston monitoring/directly communicating with Armstrong claimed they did not know the coordinates of the landing site. As a matter of fact, US Geological Survey personal were said per NASA's own account to be trying to determine the location of the astronauts based on the geologists' ability to associate the description of the moonscape as provided by the astronauts with US Geological Survey Maps of the moon. This is a point not in contention, it is NASA's own claim. As a matter of fact, NASA's official claim was that it was not until after the astronauts had returned from the moon and that photos and flight data had been analyzed by Apollo scientists that some rough determination could be made of Tranquility Base's coordinates given the information provided by these analyses of photos and flight data. That version of events is strongly supported by NASA's own Apollo experimental scientist Donald Beattie, who writes in his book "Taking Science to the Moon" that the discovery of Tranquility Base at coordinates 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E was dependent on this photographic and flight data analysis. Beattie was involved in that, the finding of Tranquility base AFTER THE ASTRONAUTS RETURNED. This is NASA's official story, official position.
NASA's official claim is that the coordinates 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E were not known until 08/01/1969. My references for this were/are provided in my posts at #125 and # 126. There is no controversy within NASA as to when and how Tranquility's coordinates were discovered. Read any official story account, NASA's own literature, Donald Beattie's and so forth, all WITHIN the Apollo program claim the coordinates 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E were not known until 08/01/1969. Again, I refer the curious to the references I provided in post #126.
The inconsistency and incoherence in the official NASA narrative becomes apparent when looking at materials outside of NASA documents proper. As I detailed back in my post #126, well before Zakalwe brought up the topic in these more recent posts, the laser operator at Lick on the evening of 07/20/1969, Remington Stone, wrote an article for the University of California Observatories News. In this article, he provided an account of the events occurring at Lick Observatory on the evening of the first landing. In his first person account of that remarkable evening, Stone states that shortly after Armstrong and Aldrin placed the reflector down on the lunar surface, they received a call from Houston. They were informed at the time the Astronauts were said to actually have been on the moon that the Tranquility Base coordinates were 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. However, Joe Wampler, the scientist who took the call from Houston, misinterpreted the "15" at the end of the N coordinate string for "50" and so though the coordinates were reported as 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E to the Lick team by Houston, Stone targeted 00 41 50 N and 23 26 00 E because Wampler heard the guy giving him the coordinates wrong. His Texas drawl was implicated as the problem.
So according to Remington Stone, though they targeted the wrong spot by 35 seconds of arc, the guy in Houston providing the information to Lick that evening may have sounded funny, but he nevertheless delivered the "correct" coordinates. It was in the hearing , on the Lick end that there was this problem.
Everyone interested in this stuff should read the Stone article. This is the second time I have discussed it at length, in detail here on this forum, so obviously I believe it is important.
So Zakalwe, direct question for you, how is it that according to NASA's official account, supported in all their relevant documents and also supported by the personal memoirs of the NASA scientists involved in the project on the Houston end such as Beattie, how is it possible that their official claim was/is that Tranquility Base was not discovered until 08/01/1969 owing to Lick's having been provided with helpful photo and flight data and yet in striking contrast, Remington Stone states the Lick people were given the numbers 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E on the evening of the moon landing, at the very time that Michael Collins was saying he did not know the coordinates of Tranquility Base, at the very same time NASA had the US geological Survey guys looking for the location of Armstrong and Aldrin by virtue of matching moon maps with descriptions, at the very same time the astronauts themselves claimed they did not know their coordinates? This is a direct question. I gave excellent references for all of these claims back in my post at #125 and #126.
I refer the reader back to those posts and would like to point out that I find it rather curious, remarkable really, that zakalwe claims to have discovered something I discussed in far greater depth than he did, and I did it some 68 posts back.
I also would like to encourage the reader to review my post at #126 for another reason. I discuss there evidence for possible tampering with Stone's original article.
Please go to my post and also review the Stone article for yourselves. It is a critical issue in Apollo, the LRRR history.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 12:12:12 GMT -4
For Jay
1) Obviously I am a confident person. Is that a problem for you?
2)Remington Stone targeted the laser at Lick Jay. NASA gave Stone the coordinates. Read the reference please at the University of California Observatories web site.
3) very good according to Flight international magazine. I already referenced this Jay and so same point to you as Jason, these facts have been established. According to Flight International, see above, as Armstrong was landing the LM he saw on the DSKY 00 41 15 N 23 26 00 E. Pretty dang good and it sure beats working with a sextant 60 miles up. Again to emphasize Jay. This point has been made. The Flight International reference was way back there. I won't answer that question again if you do not mind.
4) The degree of precision is that of the system itself. Whether the ascent and rendezvous will be successful is another matter, but that system is ALL anybody has to work with.
5) I again beg to differ Jay. Your last two posts show a simple lack of knowledge as regards the basic facts of the events in question. The Remington Stone issue above is one case in point.
6) I am a doctor among other things. And my personal life is not a topic for debate here. Please confine your comments to a discussion of the facts.
Thank you for your post.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 11:49:50 GMT -4
For Jay
With all due respect Jay, I humbly beg to differ.
As regards the LM's navigational/guidance system, the only means of determining the guidance system's own coordinates from the surface of the moon, is by way of the system's own star sighting/alignment provision, gravity alignment is an additional feature available. There are no other measuring devices available to LM pilots. Per Michael Collin's own account, a CM pilot is not able to provide LM pilots with the LM's position. Please see my quotes from Collins' book. Likewise, Houston's capabilities allegedly involved the analysis of photos and flight data that was only suggestive of the Eagle's position. And so according to NASA's own accounting, they have no real time coordinate determining capabilities.
In summary, the tools available for the determination of the Eagle's coordinates to interested parties included;
1) flight data and photo analysis, which it should be emphasized was very much in and of itself not adequate. It was not until the laser at Lick successfully targeted the LRRR that Tranquility Base's coordinates were discovered. Given Houston's abilities were not real time, and given they were inadequate, necessitating the help of the Lick laser to find 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E, we can conclude that Houston's capabilities of locating the LM in real time with any reasonable degree of accuracy are quite literally nonexistent.
Furthermore, as regards the identification of 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E, I would direct you to Remington Stone's account of the events at Lick observatory on the evening of 07/20/1969. He targeted the laser. I referenced the relevant source above. Mr. Stone clearly stated they had the coordinates 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E given to them on the evening of 07/20/1969 and this testimony of Mr. Stone is hardly in question. Given this fact, the photo analysis and flight data analysis NASA claimed to be helpful in finding Tranquility Base was never used. The scientists at Lick already had the coordinates. Given that additional fact, we can conclude Houston had absolutely no ability to provide meaningful information in determining Tranquility Base's location. They provided flight and photo analysis data over a week after the event in question, and the Lick staff had absolutely no use for this data. Houston's real time coordinate determining capabilities are zilch. Their contribution a week and a half after the alleged landing were irrelevant to the observatory's determination of the LRRR's position.
2) Collins admitted himself he would be of no use. Please see reference already made. Direct question for you Jay, With what degree of accuracy could a command module pilot make a determination of a lat./long./altitude coordinates for a LM sized object from 60 miles up with a 28 power optic?
3) The navigational system on board the LM is left here as the only tool available to provide the requisite data the determination of the lander's coordinates. These coordinates would be needed as raw data for the P12 program to ascend from the lunar surface.
These points have been established long ago Jay. They are not in dispute, or would you care to rewrite Michael Collins' book for him and or reinterpret the photos and flight data that the Lick people never used anyway?
As for bluster, hardly Jay. As regards these topics in question, debated here last pm and this am, I appear to be the ONLY member of this forum with any knowledge of these important Apollo program issues. I would reference the above posts in support of that simple fact.
Thank you for your post.
PS How presumptuous of you Jay to say anything at all as regards my background in engineering. You do not know me.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 10:28:37 GMT -4
Jason, I have had quite enough.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 10:27:22 GMT -4
For Jason
I asked you to read the manual. No more ridiculous questions will be entertained. Your queries must reflect a basic understanding of the literature referenced.
I hope this is clear.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 10:18:34 GMT -4
For Bob
Ditto for you Bob. Please read the navigational manual and you will learn how a position/location on the lunar surface is obtained. It most decidedly is not obtained by way of astronauts describing landmarks to geologists.
As with Jason, I will not answer another such absurd question on your part until your questions demonstrate a familiarity with the relevant literature.
Thank you for your response.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 10:14:55 GMT -4
For Jason,
Please read the MIT navigational manual Jason, the astronaut-actors Armstrong and Aldrin did. They learned lunar landing coordinates, lunar position coordinates are required to run the P12, ascent program. In the world of this particular navigational device, one MUST know one's point of origin, location reference, to instruct the navigational program to guide one to a new position, as in knowing the coordinates of one's position on the lunar surface as data for programming the navigational system to guide the LM to the CM.
Your comment at #163 demonstrates your lack of familiarity with the relevant literature, the navigational manual.
I will not respond to such absurd comments on your part again Jason until those comments reflect a fundamental familiarity with the relevant references, in this case the navigational manual.
Another way to say this Jason is that you cannot expect me to answer questions from you that demonstrate a lack of basic knowledge/understanding as regards the relevant piece of equipment.
Please read the manual and you will see your statement above in an embarrassing light.
Thank you for your response.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 8:11:38 GMT -4
For Luke,
I invite you to review the Apollo transcripts thoroughly. Landing coordinates for the P68 program Aldrin pretended to run were never generated and this is confirmed with absolute certainty in the many references given above, including that of Michael Collins. Please read that again Luke. Michael Collins did not know where his partners were, did not know 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. As a matter of fact, Michael Collins himself stated in "Carrying the Fire" a book which many of the official story apologists simply love, that there is little to do but hope one might figure out with maps where Apollo astronauts may be found, based on descriptions of the terrain provided by the astronaut-actors.
Your question as to why the lander could not land is absurd, but since you ask. It demonstrably was not a functional lander at all. Please see my references for support of this. Perhaps Aldrin and Armstrong would care to try again, though I think not.
Direct question for you Luke, if they landed, why does Michael Collins not know the coordinates of the site generated by Aldrin's running the P68 function?
Direct question Luke, can a rendezvous be carried out between a LM and CM without lunar positional coordinates.
Thank you for your response.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 3:01:34 GMT -4
For #144
I have trouble understanding your question gren. My piece provides more than an adequate case for the Eagle's not having been on the moon.
If you are asking me about a phantom machine, I cannot say what the Apollo 11 script writers had in mind for any imagined problems.
I only know there was no landing as Aldrin claimed in the transcript that a P68 had been run. As no landing coordinates were generated, we can with certainty conclude there was no landing. We can rightfully confer Aldrin SAID he did something that was never done.
Please dio not ask this question again. I will not answer it if it is so asked. The query has been responded to previously and NASA's own records, well referenced in my piece, confirm the feigned Eagle expedition was an expedition without a landing.
I repeat, do not ask this question again. It has been answered and answered well. I refer you and other readers to the NASA documents as referenced above and the MIT navigational manual.
Thank you for your response.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 2:52:02 GMT -4
I do not understand the question. My statement as regards Armstrong/Aldrin/Collins being possibly in low earth orbit is part of the hypothetical I presented, one of many possible scenarios. Are you asking me something about my hypothetical?
The latter part of my piece you quoted, the part regarding our certainty of Apollo's fraudulence, that part of my piece is not hypothetical and is supported generously by NASA's own documents. IF you are asking me to repeat in brief why we can be sure Apollo 11 was a staged event, we can be sure of this because no landing coordinates were ever generated, the Eagle was a lost bird. And if she did not land, Apollo cannot be real.
I hope this was helpful. If not , please rephrase your question. Be as specific as you can and I will be sure to do likewise.
Thank you for your response.
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Post by fattydash on Jul 11, 2011 1:26:11 GMT -4
For Bob at #140
Yes we know there was most definitely no telemetric transmission of the coordinates. The US Geological Survey people were frantically looking for the landing site based on descriptions of the terrain provided by Aldrin and Armstrong, hardly a situation compatible with Mission Control already having the coordinates.
Please do not ask this question again. I provided ample evidence in the body of my piece from both NASA's own documents and independent sources as to why this could not have been the case. And importantly, may I remind you Bob, NASA itself claims they did not know where the Eagle was, did not have the coordinates.
This question has absolutely no merit in its asking. A contrary position is NASA's own.
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