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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 1:52:16 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 1, 2005 1:52:16 GMT -4
Dead Hoosier I take it you're a Christian? Am I, an agnostic/atheist, going to hell when I die? Will I experience an eternity of torment for my lack of belief? Do you understand the message of the gospel? That Jesus took upon Himself the punishment due you for your sin? And not only that, but also that He will make you whole in every way, and toss in paradise as well? That He will instruct you, comfort you, and be with you now and forever? You will never stand in judgment before God and He will not even remember your sins; rather He will reward you for whatever efforts you made in this life which were motivated by love and gratitude towards Him. He will never leave you or forsake you. Assuming you've heard the good news already, you don't just "lack belief." You' ve made a choice. So yes, unless you repent of your pride and rebellion, you will go to hell. There just won't be anywhere else to put you.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 2:00:41 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Sept 1, 2005 2:00:41 GMT -4
Okay, so what about people who lived before Jesus? What about people who lived after Jesus, but never heard the Good News?
Are they going to experience an eternity of torment because they never got to hear the Good News? It's hardly their fault.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 2:03:15 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 1, 2005 2:03:15 GMT -4
You misunderstood, sts60. If you get "barcoded" you don't get to go to a concentration camp. You get to go to hell. I don't think you'll like it there. Yeah, well, down the hatch. It so happens I am a Christian. It also so happens that I believe God is a bit bigger than a lot of us think He is, and that he has room for good people whether or not they believed in Him during this life. And I rather agree with Jay's assessment of Hell. Well, I won't argue with your belief that you're a Christian, but am curious to know what you think the crucifixion was all about. If you're right, Jesus gave Himself up to death for no reason if there was actually another way to be reconciled to God. If you're talking about those who have never heard, scripture is silent on the subject. However, during the Great Tribulation an angel will proclaim the gospel to the whole world, so God is covering that base. The faithful Jews had their sins covered by animal sacrifice. Before the law, it seems that people pretty much went by conscience--the problem with that though is even Abel offered a blood sacrifice.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 2:11:04 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 1, 2005 2:11:04 GMT -4
Okay, so what about people who lived before Jesus? What about people who lived after Jesus, but never heard the Good News? Are they going to experience an eternity of torment because they never got to hear the Good News? It's hardly their fault. Are you really worried about them? Aren't you actually looking for an "out"? God is good and merciful and takes no pleasure in punishing us. You can safely leave the problem in His hands. Better yet, lay down your arms, reconcile with Him and start telling people that their sins have been paid for--then there will be fewer people for you to worry about.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 2:12:32 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Sept 1, 2005 2:12:32 GMT -4
But how does preaching the Gospel in the Great Tribulation help people who died in previous centuries without ever hearing the Gospel being preached?
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 2:14:43 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Sept 1, 2005 2:14:43 GMT -4
Dead Hoosiers
Don't worry about me. I'm not trying to look for an out. I'm merely intellectually curious about what's going to happen to people who died without hearing the Gospel.
What do you think will happen to them?
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 3:59:58 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 1, 2005 3:59:58 GMT -4
I'm unsure. It's one of those things that, apparently, we don't get to know. I think that if a person is seeking God with his whole heart, God will send him truth. In my experience, most people don't seek God or truth. They're following customs or seeking power, or spiritual thrills, or just looking for help with troubles--until those troubles disappear.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 8:49:47 GMT -4
Post by skinbath on Sept 1, 2005 8:49:47 GMT -4
Dead Hoosiers..........you seem to me to have pretty conventional,though fanatical,Christian beliefs and I`ve a question.............Is God a man with a beard? For I`ve news........For a start........"She" is Black........
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 15:38:34 GMT -4
Post by sts60 on Sept 1, 2005 15:38:34 GMT -4
"God loves you so much he took human form and sacrificied himself for you... unless you never heard of him... or never thought of sacrificing an animal to him... or for some reason during your life you didn't think he existed... in which case he's sending you to burn in fire for eternity, because he's so kind and merciful."
Retch.
I reiterate that Jay's version of Hell aligns closely with mine.
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Rex 84
Sept 1, 2005 21:38:14 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Sept 1, 2005 21:38:14 GMT -4
Okay Dead Hoosiers
Thanks for your answer. I particularly appreciate your willingness to say you didn't know.
My questions were leading to a particular point - a line from a movie. A British or Canadian missionary was explaining the Gospel to an Inuit. He explained how people who had heard the Good News could now go to heaven. The Inuit asked about his ancestors, and the missionary said that they wouldn't be punished for not having heard the Good News. The Inuit then asks, "Well, why did you tell me?"
And this is a fairly fundamental question - by offering eternal life or eternal damnation, with conditions, it can set up some very bizarre and contradictory situations, such as that of the Inuit. Also, Saint Augustine was able to ask God to make him good, but not yet.
But here's another question. By your explanation, you'll go to heaven, but every Muslim who's had the chance to listen to a Christian will not. But Muslims will say exactly the same thing - every Christian who has had the chance to convert to Islam, but doesn't, isn't in a good position either. This suggests that everyone on Earth is going to go to *someone's* hell, and most are probably going to several.
How willing are you to go to Iraq, Kuwait, Pakistan or Arabia and tell the locals that they're going to hell unless they convert to Christianity?
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Rex 84
Sept 2, 2005 1:59:28 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 2, 2005 1:59:28 GMT -4
"God loves you so much he took human form and sacrificied himself for you... unless you never heard of him... or never thought of sacrificing an animal to him... or for some reason during your life you didn't think he existed... in which case he's sending you to burn in fire for eternity, because he's so kind and merciful." ... Every man knows enough. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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Rex 84
Sept 2, 2005 3:10:22 GMT -4
Post by Dead Hoosiers on Sept 2, 2005 3:10:22 GMT -4
peterb,
The situation posed in the movie isn't actually correct. People aren't going to heaven or be okay provided they never hear the gospel. We all come into this word with a fallen nature which alienates us from our creator. At some point in time we all know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, regardless of our religious beliefs. A person may not have heard the gospel, but he does know the difference between right and wrong and soon learns that he will continually fail to live up to the standards of his own conscience.
A person may never have heard the gospel, but every man's conscience condemns him and compels him to do something about the situation. As Paul stated in Romans (see above quote) all men also know they have a creator and are answerable to Someone. And at this point, I don't feel qualified to continue with a more in depth discussion. If you want to read something really good on the subject, I highly recommend "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis.
As for Islam...not a very popular religion even among muslims. Converts were always (and still are) made under pain of death. It's a bloody, murderous, evil religion (I can't wait for the responses to that statement). People don't often look to join up with them.
I don't need to go to the Middle East to witness to muslims. We have plenty right here in Los Angeles. And I'm always willing.
I urge you to read the Bible for information about God and His ways as opposed to what other people say. If you don't know what He says, you can't accurately judge the truth of what you hear, and that includes me.
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Rex 84
Sept 2, 2005 3:35:13 GMT -4
Post by PeterB on Sept 2, 2005 3:35:13 GMT -4
Dead Hoosiers
You said: "As for Islam...not a very popular religion even among muslims. Converts were always (and still are) made under pain of death."
I'm not quite I follow your point here. There are plenty of people who willingly convert to Islam, and certainly not under pain of death. However, I recognise that the penalty for apostasy is death.
But, with respect, that isn't what I'm asking about. My point was that devout people of other religions are convinced they'll experience the paradise/heaven appropriate to their religions, and most are quite convinced that the members of religions not their own are subject to hell or its equivalent.
How do you know you're not headed for the hell of some other religion? (Or more than one?)
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Rex 84
Sept 2, 2005 5:54:22 GMT -4
Post by gezalenko on Sept 2, 2005 5:54:22 GMT -4
In an attempt to steer this thread back onto its original topic, does the current awful situation in New Orleans shed any light on the US Government's ability to round up masses of people against their will ?
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Rex 84
Sept 2, 2005 6:09:58 GMT -4
Post by sts60 on Sept 2, 2005 6:09:58 GMT -4
Not good enough, apparently, which is why they have those 100,000 Chinese troops stashed under New York City.
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