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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 12, 2007 2:30:56 GMT -4
The penetration of low level radiation from DU is not disputed, it's the fact that the DU particles remain penetrated inside living body's through ingestion and inhalation. Is that so hard to comprehend? The effects of low level radiation exposure like that are not understood, the heavy metal toxicity of DU is. I haven't looked at this thread for while but it looks like it's become the radiation rednecks reunion . The risks from Ingested radiation particles and fluids are quite well known, and researched, otherwise the old barium meal or other radio tracer elements wouldn't be used neither could Radio therapy. The main difference n risk assessment between Radio Isotopes inside the body and outside the body, is still the penetration power just that now our first line of defense against most of the Environment(skin) isn't a factor, the other main risk calculation from internal radioactivity is Dependant on concentration, this is why the strontium 90 decay product is dangerous or Active Iodine, as they tend to accumulate within specific body structures presenting a greater risk, than say radioactive Carbon, Nitrogen, Iron Potassium, for example which is not specifically concentrated into an area. Here's the problem with DU munitions, when they're fired and hit a hard target they ignite and burn at temperatures over 3000 degrees celcius creating an Aerosol plume containing sub micron sized particles of DU made ceramic and insoluble by intense heat. These particles are so small they remain inside the body entering the bloodstream through the lungs. Natural Uranium just can't do that and our bodies are designed to cope with Natural Uranium. So you have a double whammy, heavy metal poisoning as well as an Alpha particle emitter made the size of a virus courtesy of the "Liberators" who thought they would share it with the broader Iraqi and Afghan populations in a convenient aerosol.
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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 12, 2007 2:55:59 GMT -4
The Australian Defence Force phased out DU munitions back in the mid 80's and DU munitions have never been approved for use inside Australia. So when Uncle Sam comes to play soldiers he has to leave his poison darts at home. Well you can trust the Australian government then. They wouldn't lie to you. Really.. I trust them as far as I could kick em. To me they're the DU Canaries pulling the pin on a bad idea before it bit them on the bum. I'm all out of bad analogies and mixed metaphors, I'll try harder next time.
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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 12, 2007 3:11:48 GMT -4
What do you say to back the front logic like that? You said that "There is no defense against DU munitions". Yet, you did not specify what you meant. When fired, and the round is coming at you, then you are probably screwed. However, it it's just lying on the ground, you can put on anti-contamination clothing so you don't breath in any possible dust, or somehow injest anything. In the latter case, you DO, in fact, have a defense. Which situation, then, do you refer to their being no defense against DU munitions? If you did mean the latter, then it does show that you're not familar with the role of anti-contamination clothing. Otherwise, you'd know the statement to be false. So, which situation do you refer to? My original statement was that there is no defence against the use of DU munitions, meaning the users have no defence for having used it. It violates the conventions of war in that it travels in the form of an aerosol. It lingers on the battlefield after the fight as in contaminated vehicles and dust. At a minimum it is extreme overkill to use these weapons against soldiers of third world nations who are basically defenceless against the overwhelming air superiority and firepower of a superpower.
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Post by Grand Lunar on Jul 12, 2007 7:19:13 GMT -4
Ah, legal defense, that's what you meant!
Well, you'll be happy to know, as EtaC pointed out, that tungsten alloys are replacing DU rounds. I guess that leaves DU armor.
Looking at where the topic strayed, I'm wondering now where is the supposed "large scale science fraud"?
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Post by Ranb on Jul 12, 2007 10:17:10 GMT -4
At a minimum it is extreme overkill to use these weapons against soldiers of third world nations who are basically defenceless against the overwhelming air superiority and firepower of a superpower. There is nothing wrong with extreme overkill when providing your soldiers with offensive weapons with which to defeat their enemies. While the use of DU (and nuclear weapons) can be morally debatable, I for one would prefer an unfair fight if I am sent to kill my enemy. I want that extreme advantage in my favor to increase the odds that I get to go home alive and with all of my parts intact. Ranb
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furi
Mars
The Secret is to keep banging those rocks together.
Posts: 260
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Post by furi on Jul 12, 2007 12:37:25 GMT -4
I have never said DU was not Toxic, I have never disagreed that DU dust presents a hazard, I disagree with this BS Genocide call, and the ill informed Radiological issues, A clean up op and a change of policy, as long as it doesn't compromise Soldiers lives, hey it's war as to the ingested alpha Materials I have lived in a house that had Radon Monitors in, went to a school where we had Ventilation systems in the Floor to stop the pooling of gases, I have probably had more Inhalation, Ingestion and Contact with Alpha particles and Alpha Generating materials that townloads of people combined. why not try www.wise-uranium.org/ it has a nice toxicity and radiological calculators as well as manners to change parameters for Ingestion or inhalation, localised volume of space and Time Half Life calculations. plus lots of other nice grooviness Yes the Toxicity is an issue, but so is most Heavy metal ingestion in general, The Radiation risk is always just a risk, reduce contact = reduced risk, If any hazardous chemical or substance involuntary ingested or inhaled by an individual after being suspended in an aerosol is a reason to call for genocide on those grounds alone, then you better go prosecute me because I am now going for a smoke and a fart, but as I will be standing out in the car park at home time I will be doing this as approx 350 Cars start up in the area and drive off, then I might go to the pub, cough a couple of times, get some dry roasted peanuts and with complete and utter disregard Open them without consulting the others in the bar (GASP I am a War Crimmo) yes it is a hyperbolic argument, So, maybe I have been liaising with CTs too much.
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Post by nomuse on Jul 12, 2007 23:59:10 GMT -4
Just leave the bananas alone. Do you know how much Potassium-40 there is in those things?
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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 13, 2007 9:16:32 GMT -4
Great link, though i don't know how it supports your DU= fart argument. From the link you posted. www.wise-uranium.org/dhap992.htmlMy advice to you would be to smoke em if you got em and fart till your hearts content because it looks like you got a dose. You're not alone though and it must be a worry for someone like HRH having part of her portfolio drifting in the breeze over her Island. www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2006/DU-Europe-Contamination1jan06.htmThe fact is the hazardous effects of DU munitions were known long before the shrubs invasion of the third world. Explain how it isn't genocide.
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lenbrazil
Saturn
Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
Posts: 1,045
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Post by lenbrazil on Jul 13, 2007 10:55:30 GMT -4
"Explain how it isn't genocide."
Perhaps you should look at a dictionary and then 'explain how it is genocide.'
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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 13, 2007 11:08:45 GMT -4
"Explain how it isn't genocide."Perhaps you should look at a dictionary and then 'explain how it is genocide.' I know it very well as an Australian who lived in Tasmania for many years, Len from Brazil. Destroying a racial or ethnic group in whole or in part.
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lenbrazil
Saturn
Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
Posts: 1,045
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Post by lenbrazil on Jul 13, 2007 12:54:59 GMT -4
"Explain how it isn't genocide."Perhaps you should look at a dictionary and then 'explain how it is genocide.' I know it very well as an Australian who lived in Tasmania for many years, Len from Brazil. Destroying a racial or ethnic group in whole or in part. Your definition is OK except for the "or in part" bit. Tell us how the use of DU (which I'm NOT defending) amounts to "destroying a racial or ethnic group". Though hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died since the invasion I've seen no evidence any ethnic group there is facing destruction. In any case use of DU weapons was only reponsible for a small number of those deaths
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Post by captain swoop on Jul 13, 2007 19:09:20 GMT -4
I suppose if the ethnic group was defined as 'Tank Crew' then it could work.
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Post by 3onthetree on Jul 13, 2007 23:18:59 GMT -4
The term Genocide was used by Furi and it interested me. I agree though DU alone may not add up to genocide, you need to add it to the total sum and reason why they had no hesitation in using DU munitions in gulf war 2. The US recognised the strategic importance of the Middle East way back in WW2 and it has remained central to global dominance of the West ever since. So much so that the denial of Soviet expansion into the Oil rich regions of the Middle East forced them into their own Manhattan project of petroleum research, which they seem to have succeeded in. The other problem the US had was with the natives, there were a lot of them and if left to their own devices could develop their own resources and become powers in their own right as they actually start to think they own BP's oil when they have a stable government. The solution is simple, install your very own puppets and ensure endless war and a fractured society. You can even join in by encouraging your puppet to attack one neighbour with assurances of neutrality, then give the same assurances again when the tinpot wants to attack another then double cross him and play the good guy while bombing the hell out of the population, though not liberating them. Impose sanctions which cause massive suffering, starvation and social collapse, throw in some intermittent bombing as well. Then phase three, pretend to liberate this hapless nation, using the same poisonous weapons of mass destruction. Install a new puppet government and encourage sectarian violence calling them all collectively Al Qaeda. Sounds like genocide to me.
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lenbrazil
Saturn
Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
Posts: 1,045
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Post by lenbrazil on Jul 15, 2007 15:32:56 GMT -4
The US recognised the strategic importance of the Middle East way back in WW2 and it has remained central to global dominance of the West ever since. So much so that the denial of Soviet expansion into the Oil rich regions of the Middle East forced them into their own Manhattan project of petroleum research, which they seem to have succeeded in ?????????????? What are you talking about? Much as I have been very critical of the invasion of Iraq I haven’t seen any evidence the US or it allies used WMD’s there. Do you have any evidence in support of this claim? Citation Citation, they certainly aren’t calling the Shiites “al Qaeda” Sounds like it to you but it still doesn’t qualify, do you have any evidence civilians are the intentional targets of the US or that any racial/ethnic/religious groups have been marked for or even face the risk annihilation?
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furi
Mars
The Secret is to keep banging those rocks together.
Posts: 260
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Post by furi on Jul 15, 2007 16:12:24 GMT -4
Have been looking for the genocide piece again, I think I mght have crossthreaded myself with another or previous debate relating to DU.
I thought it was one of the links in here, but it might just have been a previous forum or spurious Rocky Link.
I have been given too many links for many calls to try and link various gubbermints with Genocide relating to DU (some not doing themselves any favours by linking into the NWO or other CTs)
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