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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 15:59:43 GMT -4
Well, again, how do you know for sure that the feeling is in fact God? What is your standard of reference? How would you know for sure that it was not Satan?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 16:06:54 GMT -4
Well, again, how do you know for sure that the feeling is in fact God? Because it was. The difference is not exactly obvious but definitely present for anyone who has felt it. And often it is undeniable. I have met people who at times half-heartedly wished they hadn't received a witness from God, because it meant they had to do hard things that they wouldn't have wanted to otherwise. But they couldn't deny that it was God who had spoken to them. Every other experience I have ever had in my life, and how even the most intense feelings differ from the spiritual. Because I know how that feels too.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 16:14:32 GMT -4
You know because you know?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 16:43:09 GMT -4
How do you know how salt tastes? Because you have tasted it yourself.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 17:01:29 GMT -4
I can rationally confirm that what I am tasting is salt. You can't rationally confirm that what you are feeling is God.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 18:15:45 GMT -4
How can you rationally confirm it's really salt?
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 18:21:54 GMT -4
Are you serious?
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 18:23:22 GMT -4
Well, to take a page from your own book, the Devil could make you think you're really tasting salt, when in fact it's sugar.
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Post by Ginnie on Nov 27, 2007 18:35:13 GMT -4
My best friend, who grew up in Hawaii and whose mother still lives there, is terrified of pleiosaurs. She knows they've been extinct for millions of years. However, when she's out swimming in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, she believes that, if there were still pleiosaurs anywhere, that's where they'd be, and they're obviously going to kill her and eat her. Sorry Gilianren, but I couldn't help laughing at this. It's probably not supposed to be funny. I know a few people that are terrified of mice, something that confounds me. But, we've had pet rats before - excellent pets btw. I don't like beheaded mice though - the ones our cats have left on our bed. Presents? Spiders I can understand. Myself, I run from cockroaches, centipedes (scary!) and some beetles. But wasps, bees and hornets don't bother me for some reason.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 18:36:19 GMT -4
My rational tests don't include the supernatural, as there is no rational reason that I should include the supernatural. "Rational" precludes the supernatural, as the supernatural is by definition beyond the realm of nature. My rational tests would include more than taste, as human senses are not terribly sharp. There are a number of rational ways to determine if a substance is actually salt. It can be done and it has been done. I am not limited to sensory perception.
There is no rational test to determine if the feeling you have comes from a god or if it is just a feeling you have. We know that humans can feel things that aren't real. There is no rational reason to believe that a god exists. There is no rational reason to believe the feeling you attribute to a god is actually that which you claim.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 18:48:43 GMT -4
Until you have experienced what I have experienced, how can you judge it's source, or presume that I have incorrectly judged it?
You can rely on the words of others that a substance is really salt, that it has a different chemical structure from a substance that looks similar - refined sugar, and that other people report that it does in fact taste very different, but you have no way of knowing what salt tastes like without actually tasting it.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 19:17:16 GMT -4
Things other than salt taste like salt. Through a rational test, I can determine if the thing I think tastes like salt is in fact salt. Things other than a god can make you feel something that you believe to be a god. There is no rational test to show if what you feel is a god or if it is something else.
As I have said, we know that humans can feel things that aren't real. Where the movie-goer knows that the shark in "Jaws" is not real and the feelings of fear brought about in the movie can be dismissed, you fervently believe in your God and so you believe the feelings you have are based on something real. Your belief is not rational, however.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 19:32:05 GMT -4
I disagree.
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 19:33:45 GMT -4
That your belief is not rational? We have been here before.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 19:36:20 GMT -4
Yes we have. I think we've shaken out this cycle. Time to put it back on the burner for a while until it builds up more pressure and can explode again.
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