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Post by wdmundt on Nov 27, 2007 20:10:53 GMT -4
I agree. I've demonstrated repeatedly that you can't make a rational argument for your case and you have repeatedly retreated to appeals to faith.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 27, 2007 22:05:19 GMT -4
And you've refused to attempt the test I presented. So we both have problems with the other's position, I guess.
Edit: And I disagree, naturally, that you've shown my position isn't rational, whether or not I can make an argument that will convince you.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 27, 2007 23:17:55 GMT -4
Sorry Gilianren, but I couldn't help laughing at this. It's probably not supposed to be funny. No, no--it is indeed supposed to be funny. Even she admits it's funny, but she is genuinely scared of pleiosaurs. And again, at least she has evidence that pleiosaurs were once real, although not evidence that would convince the religiously blind, who won't accept any evidence of evolution, because it contradicts their beliefs.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Nov 28, 2007 11:41:07 GMT -4
Oh boy. To steer this back home, I'm gonna say this:
I think it's pretty damn ridiculous that companies and public figures won't dare to refer to Christmas in any specific way. To have to apologize for calling a christmas tree a christmas tree instead of a "family" or "holiday" tree is just asinine. Conservatives have it wrong though. The secular liberals have nothing to do with it. It's this bizarrely-exaggerated Politically-Correct and extremely over-litigious joke of a society we live in that's created the problem. It's a sad world when companies are so afraid of offending somebody they won't even call something what it is. Atheists and liberals are not squarely to blame for this situation. Everybody is to blame.
America has become a bizarro-world parody of itself, and the fervor we get our panties all wadded up in over the "winter holidays" is our poster child. I think America should take the collective stick out of its rear.
I think the problem is that people just assume that you can either publicly celebrate only one winter holiday or you can publicly celebrate none at all specifically. I have a great idea: why not celebrate ALL the winter holidays? Why can't we say Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, AND happy Kwanzaa? Why can't Lowes sell X-mas trees AND dradles?
You know what, I'm starting a petition in protest of this nonsense. If christmas trees can't freaking be called christmas trees, then I don't think a menorah can be called a menorah either. I propose we publicly refer to menorahs as "celebratory holiday candlesticks." Are you with me? Let's go out and sue somebody! I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!
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Post by wdmundt on Nov 28, 2007 15:04:55 GMT -4
Nobody has ever said that they can't be called Christmas trees. It is when anyone dares label such things as anything but Christmas trees that the religious conservatives get all bent out of shape. They also are the ones who get bent out of shape when businesses use "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings." We on the other side get bent out of shape when the religious conservatives insist that we call our trees "Christmas" trees or insist that we say "Merry Christmas," even if we are not Christians.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 28, 2007 15:19:12 GMT -4
And again, Lowe's does call them Christmas trees in the store and on the website. It was an error in the printing department, though I'm not clear on how, that made them get called "family trees" (which I don't think anyone here is disputing is a stupid name!) in the catalogue. I suspect, frankly, that it was a joke made by a layout person that didn't get caught before the thing went to press.
You're not going to be able to convince a lot of fundamentalists--of most religions, but primarily of Christianity--to put up symbols of my religion's winter holiday, because they think our primary emblem is an emblem of Satanism. In fact, I've been told many a time that I worship Satan, a difficult thing to do if you don't believe in one. (Poor, maligned Pan.)
Actually, I think Kwanzaa is silly, myself. As do the Africans a friend of mine works with. It's intended to be a harvest festival, but nobody harvests in December, no matter where they live. (At least, not as a primary harvest.)
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Post by LunarOrbit on Nov 28, 2007 23:33:48 GMT -4
It was an error in the printing department, though I'm not clear on how, that made them get called "family trees" (which I don't think anyone here is disputing is a stupid name!) in the catalogue. I suspect, frankly, that it was a joke made by a layout person that didn't get caught before the thing went to press. I imagine they intended to call them "family Christmas trees" and somehow the "Christmas" was omitted. I don't believe it was intentional, otherwise the in-store and website displays would correspond with the catalog.
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Post by Data Cable on Nov 29, 2007 3:34:59 GMT -4
I don't like beheaded mice though - the ones our cats have left on our bed. Presents? I've heard that cats do things like this not to appease their masters, but rather to teach us dumb monkeys to hunt for ourselves. Spiders I don't mind, so long as they're not crawling on me. In fact, I make a point of leaving the webs up which invariably appear every summer on the front of my house, 'cuz I'd rather have the spiders munchin' on the 'skeeters than the 'skeeters munchin' on me.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Nov 29, 2007 4:40:48 GMT -4
Nobody has ever said that they can't be called Christmas trees. It is when anyone dares label such things as anything but Christmas trees that the religious conservatives get all bent out of shape. They also are the ones who get bent out of shape when businesses use "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings." We on the other side get bent out of shape when the religious conservatives insist that we call our trees "Christmas" trees or insist that we say "Merry Christmas," even if we are not Christians. Of course, Christmas should definitely not be forced onto others during the holiday season, but people and businesses should not have to resort to vague holiday themes out of fear that someone will get offended and sue them either.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 29, 2007 4:51:46 GMT -4
No, but if they choose, as most of them do, to use "happy holidays"--again, a perfectly legitimate form that encompasses even the beliefs of Christian fundamentalists, who celebrate Thanksgiving and New Year's as well--it shouldn't be construed as an "attack" on anyone. It's merely an acknowledgement that there are lots of other people who celebrate other religious holidays, or don't celebrate any religious holidays at all but do indeed also celebrate Thanksgiving and New Year's.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Nov 29, 2007 5:45:59 GMT -4
Oh I certainly agree. If people and businesses voluntarily choose to say happy holidays I'm totally fine with that. It really is much easier (and cheaper in print) to say "happy holidays" than it is to say "merry christmas, happy hannukah and a good kwanzaa." As I said above, it's the situations where businesses are coerced out of fear of litigation to make vague holiday statements that really bothers me. And I should clarify that I don't consider it an "attack" on christian values or any of that nonsense like the conservatives say. It's just the product of our wacky society.
In fact, that conservatives call it an "attack" on christmas and christian values is telling of the perceived persecution they claim to constantly be suffering. Pat Robertson once said that christians are by far the most persecuted people in history.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Nov 29, 2007 11:53:04 GMT -4
If Pat Robertson believes that then he's ignorant of history. We can certainly claim that Christians have been persecuted, but what's the point in claiming to be the biggest victim?
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Post by echnaton on Nov 29, 2007 14:22:58 GMT -4
but what's the point in claiming to be the biggest victim?
What is the point of any conspiracy theory? At least one reason is to get attention and any revenues that follow.
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Post by gillianren on Nov 29, 2007 15:17:13 GMT -4
Psst--Reynoldbot--don't forget Solstice! And Kwanzaa certainly isn't a religious holiday; it's more than possible to celebrate both it and Christmas.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Nov 30, 2007 2:04:46 GMT -4
There's like a dozen holidays this time of year, I can never remember any of them besides the big three (big being a relative term).
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