reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 29, 2007 17:18:01 GMT -4
Or, as I said, it could be a myth. With a moral. To teach lessons. Which is what the bible is for.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 29, 2007 17:41:53 GMT -4
Actually whether it's a myth or factual has little bearing on the question I asked.
And since you mention it, I'm curious - what do you think the moral of the Noah story is?
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 29, 2007 17:43:48 GMT -4
Is everyone here really serious about this?
Was I really serious starting this thread? Yes and No. I thought it was interesting that all religions have so many supernatural events and elements associated with them, and they hardly are ever explained in real world terms. I really like the answers you gave, it explains how in our natural world the 'Noah and the Ark' story couldn't possibly have happened. However, millions of people believe it did. (not me, incidentally) I thought it would be interesting if anyone could explain how. And we have a fine, intelligent bunch of folks in this forum who will likely give better insight on this little issue than say, my best friend or my neighbour. Now, I realize that the average person couldn't possible explain all the idiosyncrasies of their church's doctrine. Heck, even most Catholics can't explain the Trinity . Most of the time Scholars are relied upon to do that sort of stuff. Explanations for the supernatural events in the Bible are usually given like Jason's response, of God performing a miracle. But Jason also seems to be sincere, and usually careful and detailed in his posts, and I appreciate that effort.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 29, 2007 17:56:07 GMT -4
Let me emphasize again that I don't really believe in the supernatural in the sense of events that break the laws of physics. I believe miracles simply make use of laws that we aren't yet aware of or don't fully understand.
Something like Clarke's third law.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 29, 2007 18:46:26 GMT -4
Yeah, I can understand that. There's a lot of things that have happened that we have no explanation for. All the 'psychic phenomena' must have some natural physics behind it that we don't understand. One of my friends many years ago saw her grandfather after he had died. I mean, she talked to him and sat on his lap. She wasn't on drugs, she doesn't lie - she was a very sensitive, level-headed girl. Someone explain that to me.
There's a good book I read Jason called 'Natural Grace' - dialogues on creation, darkness, and the soul in spirituality and science. The diaglogues are about ritual, prayer, the soul, and the nature of life. The dialogues are between Matthew Fox - a spiritual theologian and Episcopal priest, and Rupert Sheldrake, a former Research Fellow of the Royal Society and was director of studies in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge University. It was amazing at how much agreement these two gentlemen came to regarding these issues, coming from such different backgrounds.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jun 29, 2007 19:03:18 GMT -4
Is everyone here really serious about this?Was I really serious starting this thread? Yes and No. I thought it was interesting that all religions have so many supernatural events and elements associated with them, and they hardly are ever explained in real world terms. I really like the answers you gave, it explains how in our natural world the 'Noah and the Ark' story couldn't possibly have happened. Thank you. It is good to know that I am heard. I often feel as if I an not. I think religions have a heart of truth and are surrounded in myth.
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Post by gillianren on Jun 29, 2007 19:18:22 GMT -4
I'm not trying to give the Noah story credibility, I'm questioning your methodology. How can we know, thousands of years after they were first recorded, which of two similar stories actually preceded the other? Well, given that the recorded history of the first group predates the foundation according to its own traditions of the second, I'd say that's a pretty good sign. After all, "thousands of years ago" is much vaguer than archaeologists can get these things. The moral, incidentally, is very simple, and they taught it to me in Sunday school when I was nine. If you do right, God will protect you, even as He punishes the wicked. Same as Sodom and Gamorrah without the rape and violation of hospitality rules, in fact.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jun 29, 2007 19:21:16 GMT -4
Attacking what you regard as the weakest of my points does not give your view any credibility. In fact, it does the opposite. It shows that you are struggling to support a notion that is flatly untrue. I'm not trying to give the Noah story credibility, I'm questioning your methodology. How can we know, thousands of years after they were first recorded, which of two similar stories actually preceded the other? Because it makes sense. The burden of proof is on what does not make sense. it is logical to think what is written later, if it is similar to what is written before, is a work influenced by a previous work. It is progression. It is natural. It is what happens in every other work. Thinking otherwise requires proof. I just thought of another one. #8. If Noah and his sons were the start of mankind's population, all males on earth today would have identical Y chromosomes. They do not. So it could not be literally true. This is how it is known which males can trace their ancestry back to Genghis Kahan in Mongolia and China. No offense, Jason, but you remind me of someone. When my son was born, my Cathaholic Brazilian Mother-in-Law was staying with us. At that time, the Mars mission that predated the two rovers was underway. This somehow disturbed her. I never knew why it did. It upset her view of the Universe and of God being a man in the sky watching over us. She really did not have any reason to doubt its occurrence. But she refused to believe it was real. I have every reason to believe that she thought that somewhere deep inside she knew the Mars mission was real but she also believed that God was watching her and that God smiled on her for refusing to acknowledge it or believe it. In God's eyes, she seemed to think, she was being a devotee and completely giving her mind to the old views of the Universe. When the news showed a computer simulation of a landing she said, "ah-ha! A simulation... I do NOT believe !!" In her very simple view of the Universe, heaven was a physical place and if we could send robots to mars, we could send them to heaven. Your incomprehensible adherence to literal interpretations of traditional stories reminds me much of how she saw things. I cannot help but think that you think you are being watched and God is smiling on your devotion. You may wonder why I am saying this. It is simple. I layed out 6 other points. You cannot argue them, so you pick another one and you are doing exactly what I have said in a previous post. And you will do the same again and again. I can only think you are being lead to do this because of some sort of devotion instead of thinking for yourself.
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Post by LunarOrbit on Jun 29, 2007 22:09:14 GMT -4
what do you think the moral of the Noah story is? Be good or God will kill you.
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Post by Ginnie on Jun 29, 2007 22:31:34 GMT -4
what do you think the moral of the Noah story is? Be good or God will kill you. -or- Do as God says or He will kill you. I wish I could remember the exact quote. But Socrates said something like this: That you can tell if a god is really God by the laws that he/He makes. If the law isn't 'right' then you can tell it came from a false god, or more accurately someone putting words in His mouth.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 29, 2007 23:09:35 GMT -4
Well, given that the recorded history of the first group predates the foundation according to its own traditions of the second, I'd say that's a pretty good sign. After all, "thousands of years ago" is much vaguer than archaeologists can get these things. That assumes that the Noah story originated when the Hebrews originated. How do we know that's the case?
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Post by gillianren on Jun 30, 2007 1:51:45 GMT -4
Either way, we know it's older than 6000 years.
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reynoldbot
Jupiter
A paper-white mask of evil.
Posts: 790
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Post by reynoldbot on Jun 30, 2007 5:05:25 GMT -4
Actually whether it's a myth or factual has little bearing on the question I asked. And since you mention it, I'm curious - what do you think the moral of the Noah story is? Well, let's see. We've got sacrifice for a greater good, being prepared for the unpredictable, be good or God will smite thee, avoid being awash in sin or god will awash you away, hard work pays off, listen to God and you will prosper etc. Do I need to prove to you there's a moral or you won't believe it? Of course, the movie Evan Almighty would have you believe that God wants you to be close to your family or he will destroy a whole town and kill thousands of people. Plus, he will make you build a big ark and collect 2 of every animal for absolutely no reason as the flood will not actually threaten any species.
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Post by Bill Thompson on Jun 30, 2007 15:50:08 GMT -4
If I knew it was that simple I wouldn't have left the church! If you don't beleive God can accomplish miracles than I don't think you should be in a church. That does not make any sense. People go to church for other reasons.
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Jason
Pluto
May all your hits be crits
Posts: 5,579
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Post by Jason on Jun 30, 2007 16:28:34 GMT -4
I personally beleive that you should beleive your church's doctrine or you shouldn't belong to it. Treating a church as just a social club strikes me as dishonest.
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