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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 15:42:51 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 9, 2009 15:42:51 GMT -4
But everyone reaps benefits or pays the price for who is elected in any country.
it doesn't mean they"should live with" them being murdered.
Yes let's do hope so.
the UN resolution failed. Both parties didn't accept it. I don't know if Egypt can still do something
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 15:44:30 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 9, 2009 15:44:30 GMT -4
this is a justification for killing civilians. No, they don't have to live , or actualy die, because of other people's faults. ACCORDING TO MODERN HUMAN RIGHTS, EVEN EXECUTION, THAT IS PAYING THE PRICE BY DEATH FOR ONE'S ACTS, IS NOT JUSTIFIED, let alone dying for toher people's faults. In the U.S. execution is legal and considered moral by a majority of the population. In most Middle Eastern countries it is legal, considered moral, and carried out for additional crimes that it would not be invoked for in the U.S. I am talking about Human Rights, not the U.S.A who is condemned for violating many human rights, including Abou Ghraib prison.
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 15:49:41 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 9, 2009 15:49:41 GMT -4
It is not a justification for anything. It is an observation of human nature and the situation. I don't know what the "moral" way to wage war against a group like Hamas is. If you could educate me I would greatly appreciate it.
when you say they should live with that, then it is justification.
[ Actions that would stop the deprivations, not prolong them.
well, HAMAS is blamed because it doesn't measure the power balance and it knows that Israel is going to do what it did. THis is right, but the issue is not that out of nothing Hamas did what it did. The Palestinians are oppressed and maltreated from Israel.
Peace negations are far more productive.
but Livni said she doesn't want to shake hands with Hamas by the end.
Gazan's are dieing both because of Israel's attacks and because of their leaders poor decision making. Both problems need to be solved simultaneously.
agreed.
Another observation. As long a Hamas is willing to fight as a proxy for other radical governments, its citizens will die for those governments. as an observation , it is true, but it doesn't mean that no noe should move a finger to hep the palestinians just because hamas did so and the world should watch them "reap what they planted", so to speak.
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 15:53:49 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 9, 2009 15:53:49 GMT -4
Did you know that just four days before the fighting began, the Hamas parliament passed a Sharia-based legal code that among other things legalizes crucifixion? HAMAS are wackos. What I said was not to defend them. I ope they never rule Palestine and they are like HA in Lebanon, they just bring wars, but the issue is that Israel overreacts and kills civilians, and just destroys every life, while Condoliza sits and says : "it is not time yet to stop the fire".
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 15:57:02 GMT -4
Post by Jason on Jan 9, 2009 15:57:02 GMT -4
In the U.S. execution is legal and considered moral by a majority of the population. In most Middle Eastern countries it is legal, considered moral, and carried out for additional crimes that it would not be invoked for in the U.S. I am talking about Human Rights, not the U.S.A who is condemned for violating many human rights, including Abou Ghraib prison. I reject your condemnation. Comparing legalized crucifixion to Abu Ghraib would be ridiculously silly if it weren't so wrong.
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 16:22:22 GMT -4
Post by gillianren on Jan 9, 2009 16:22:22 GMT -4
HAMAS are wackos. What I said was not to defend them. I ope they never rule Palestine and they are like HA in Lebanon, they just bring wars, but the issue is that Israel overreacts and kills civilians, and just destroys every life, while Condoliza sits and says : "it is not time yet to stop the fire". Every life? Even you must admit that you're exaggerating. I'm not going to defend Israel to you, because there's no point. It's pointed out to you when other governments do things to provoke Israeli response, and you say, "Well, of course they did that, because they knew what Israel would do." But maybe if the other nations in the region weren't always going on about wiping Israel off the face of the Earth, maybe they wouldn't have so much cause to overreact.
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Gaza
Jan 9, 2009 17:11:43 GMT -4
Post by PhantomWolf on Jan 9, 2009 17:11:43 GMT -4
this is because they care for human rights and they have a sense of morality. why to condemn them? It doesn't mater if they care for human rights and have a sense of morality, trying to force people into saying and acting in certain ways just because you believe they are correct, is wrong and immoral.
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Gaza
Jan 10, 2009 15:18:50 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 10, 2009 15:18:50 GMT -4
I am talking about Human Rights, not the U.S.A who is condemned for violating many human rights, including Abou Ghraib prison. I reject your condemnation. Comparing legalized crucifixion to Abu Ghraib would be ridiculously silly if it weren't so wrong. you can't reject a condemnation that Amnesty International does. Both acts are condemned, as well as the killing that is happening. Anyways it is going off topic slowly here. We were talking about paying or not paying the price of someone's acts.
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Gaza
Jan 10, 2009 15:22:37 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 10, 2009 15:22:37 GMT -4
Every life? Even you must admit that you're exaggerating.
don't take everything literall. I said that to give an idea about the immense killing that was happening.
I'm not going to defend Israel to you, because there's no point. It's pointed out to you when other governments do things to provoke Israeli response, and you say, "Well, of course they did that, because they knew what Israel would do."
this is not what I was saying. I blame HAMAS for doing so while they know how the Israeli response would be. What I am pointing out, is that Israel also has been bothering the Palestinians and causing their death before HAMAS fired their rockets, and HAMAS took this as a justifiaction o do what they did.
But maybe if the other nations in the region weren't always going on about wiping Israel off the face of the Earth, maybe they wouldn't have so much cause to overreact.
read above.
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Gaza
Jan 10, 2009 15:25:36 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 10, 2009 15:25:36 GMT -4
It doesn't mater if they care for human rights and have a sense of morality, trying to force people into saying and acting in certain ways just because you believe they are correct, is wrong and immoral
I think that is well known that what is immoral is killing the innocent. Making a declaration against the killings shouldn't be something so offensive, but they don't have to go too far [the candaian institutions], however, it is a courageous step to declare wrong what is wrong, even if it is your own country who is doing wrong.
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Jason
Pluto
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Posts: 5,579
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Gaza
Jan 10, 2009 18:34:44 GMT -4
Post by Jason on Jan 10, 2009 18:34:44 GMT -4
I reject your condemnation. Comparing legalized crucifixion to Abu Ghraib would be ridiculously silly if it weren't so wrong. you can't reject a condemnation that Amnesty International does. I can't?
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Gaza
Jan 11, 2009 6:51:15 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 11, 2009 6:51:15 GMT -4
you can't reject a condemnation that Amnesty International does. I can't? No because they understand what human rights are, and Israel and America are big human rights violators. You can't say because America has execution legal then it should be legal .
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Jason
Pluto
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Gaza
Jan 11, 2009 14:25:08 GMT -4
Post by Jason on Jan 11, 2009 14:25:08 GMT -4
No because they understand what human rights are, and Israel and America are big human rights violators. You can't say because America has execution legal then it should be legal . Amnesty International has no authority over soveriegn governments nor should it. Execution should be legal if a majority of a country's people decide that they accept it as a moral and appropriate punishment. The US and Israel are some of the best defenders of human rights in the world, especially when contrasted with some of their strongest critics; such as Iran, Russia, and China. Countries like North Korea and Myanmar shouldn't even be mentioned in the same human rights report as the US and Israel. At the same time in the new year that approximately 125 civilians were being killed in Gaza by military action (with about 400 other casualties being Hamas fighters), 400 civilians were being massacred in Uganda. Guess which item got the most news coverage? Sri Lanka just ended a 16 year war against rebels that had at least 70,000 military and civilian casualties over its span. Did you see that in the news? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict over the same time period has resulted in at most 15,000 deaths. The few human rights violations of democracies with free presses receive vastly overblown media attention when compared to real atrocities being enacted daily in the less civilized parts of the world, especially if Israel is involved.
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Gaza
Jan 12, 2009 12:31:03 GMT -4
Post by echnaton on Jan 12, 2009 12:31:03 GMT -4
It is not a justification for anything. It is an observation of human nature and the situation. I don't know what the "moral" way to wage war against a group like Hamas is. If you could educate me I would greatly appreciate it. when you say they should live with that, then it is justification. I did not say the Gaza Palestinians should just live with anything. And Hamas is exactly who the Palestinians should be fighting to get away from not Israel. Why should anyone shake hands with a "wacko" enemy? If Hamas wanted peace, I believe they could have it. Their actions indicate that peace is not of any real interest to them. It is equally immoral to intentionally put the innocent in harms way. There is enough blame for everyone here. Pointing fingers in blame is not going to solve the issue. Nor is score keeping on who has killed the most civilians or made the most attacks. True. Israel supported the infiltration of Gaza by its citizens. Another historical observation is pertinent here. If the people occupying a land are not using it efficiently then someone else will come along and take it from them to put it to a more valuable use. This is seen time and again in history and played out in Gaza. Again this a historical observation to gain some perspective on the situation and does not justify anyone's actions. The war to expel Israel from Gaza has largely been successful and the current fighting is no longer about that. If the Palestinians want to gain control over there own land that they have fought and died for they need to stop fighting and win the peace. Fighting over past wrongs will not improve the lives of Gazans, even if the wrongs are fresh on their minds. I do not know what terms it will take to get Israel to peace talks. In the past they have been wiling to make peace with those who will respect borders but that may not apply here. But I do believe if the Palestinians set clear goals for the conflict such as decisive borders, the world would be much more sympathetic to their plight and they could obtain peace. Only in peace can Gaza and the West bank develop sufficiently that they are able to defend there own territory. Lionking, I do know that your desire is to stop the killing of civilians in a war that is close to you. You identify with those being killed and feel pain from their deaths. They are much like you and you have experienced what they are going through. I do not discount this and I don't think that anyone here does either. I would like there to be peace in the Middle East as well. Israel has added to the fighting by taking land in Gaza and the West Bank. They are not blameless in this situation. I hope you can see my point of view. My perspective is that Israel exists as a nation and will continue to exist. And only in the acceptance of that idea can any lasting peace be obtained. ETA Text left out of first quote
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Gaza
Jan 14, 2009 3:16:35 GMT -4
Post by lionking on Jan 14, 2009 3:16:35 GMT -4
Hamas act against peace as Israel does. The thing is that Israel doesn't want peace by making the life of the Gazans harder and giving Hamas justification. Peace doesn't mean seige and blocking borders. Hamas on their turn are not easy.
Regarding justifications, you said that paying the price of others mistakes happens and should be lived with. Review your post.
The issue here is the civilian deaths. It is so massive that around 10000 ppl died and most of them are women and children who pay the price of other's mistakes. This equation has been and will be applied in Lebanon if anything went wrong.
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